Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Hacking Kaizen. I'm Graham Newman. The artist Eji Sumi, born in Tokyo in 1970, is internationally renowned for his installation and multimedia art. After relocating to New York in 1993, he expanded his practice to include design, gaining attention for various projects and working as an assistant to Italian master painter Stefano Castronovo. In 2012, Sumi moved to Bangkok, creating notable works that include Densen Plus Alpha, a mixed media exhibition highlighting the need to underground power cables, and Quarq, a science inspired art project visualizing aerodynamics and fluid dynamics through reflective powder materials. Sumi's polycarbonate origami sculpture Sinusoid was a finalist in the Sovereign Asian art Prize in 2016. He has exhibited internationally and has been curated by figures such as Erich Scheiner, former director of the Andy Warhol Museum. In addition to his artistic endeavors, Sumi serves as a full time lecturer in the Communication Design program at Chlongkong University. Today we turn our focus to Bangkok and its growing role in the regional art market. We'll also explore how Bangkok artists balance tradition and innovation, using their work to address pressing social issues while pushing creative boundaries. And we'll dive into the transformative role of technology from digital mediums to AR and AI and what these shifts mean for the future of art. We begin by asking Eji what interests and references inspire his artistic practice.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah, as an artist I said that I'm going to incorporate playfulness and also the art and science and phenomenon, artificialities and also historical context and so on. But I still have the many curiosity how those phenomena, the water, wind, gravity and so on, that can be the future of the art. So I think about the future. So for example like I also do the simulation animation and so on. So I was one one of the work I made in Shen Lankung Design center with the Korean the professor and artist together we generated this part of that he was working on AI and I was talking about the future of the art. So I think it is important the way that how the current work that I'm making will predict or has a meaning in the future instead of focusing on just the present. That's what I'm kind of thinking about it. So I think every artist wants to be their name on history one way or other, whether local or global. But in that sense I try to think about how my work will be perceived in the future when I'm not there. That's something that it's a challenging concept but I try to think of that for example Andy Warhol 15 seconds of fame is now in social media is uploading some reason. I don't know how he predicted it or not, but I don't have that kind of like a strong word to talk about the futures but I try to incorporate those phenomena and the technology called advance. If we can control the gravity for example in the future then that. That what what can be the artwork. Interestingly recently the. The. The one science institute with the university has successed to create this facility to create microgravity. So that was like the. For me was like oh I am. I just did that like a few years ago. So this kind of context quite interests me for the future of art.
[00:04:24] Speaker C: What are you looking at over the next six to 12 months in terms of what you would like to produce? What are the key touch points that are inspiring you to produce work and why?
[00:04:35] Speaker A: I've been working on some new project for collaborating with a fashion company like making a hat in Chiang Mai. He's a they're Japanese hat company and we are trying to create artist hat project which I don't usually do but the Galilee bar Galilee one of the well known artists Galilee artist run Galilee called Rukri Telvania his Galilee and Muak Japanese Chiang Mai based hat company is collaborating together with the hat project. Normally don't do the fashion everyone but I think it's kind of interesting project how we can support Chiang Mai artist and also like the Muak the hat company is actually supporting all the Chiang Mai workers and Thai workers and really emphasizing and sustainability. So we'll be doing this for the first time I think in a way like has been big no no for artists to collaborate with those brandings and the fashions and I think those element was not accepted. But already in this era of 24 Takashi Murakami worked on Louis Vuitton and you know all those different artists already has been done. So like a boundary has been already broken from the previous artists. So I guess we have a freedom to be able to work on like commercial branding with that to use like coming to the previous question of the marketing and so on. But for me I have a big topic that I've been working on as science phenomena and artificiality and natural phenomena of nature. So this has been my key component of the creating making artwork. So I've been working on the particle physics, fluid dynamics, aerodynamics, gravity, time waves. So those natural phenomena of what we all share but we use I try to incorporate with the technology or new way of adding artificiality. So it's nothing new. Leonardo da Vinci Once mentioned, innovation is to create a new configuration of the phenomena. So I am actually the part of that kind of path as well in a way that I'm trying to create a new way of configuration that adding me as artificiality or technology as artificiality and create those new phenomena into different configurations so that we will experience something that we haven't experienced before.
[00:07:23] Speaker C: Now we're recording this in early December. Quite recently we've had the Bangkok Art Biennale. What was your takeout?
[00:07:31] Speaker A: Bangkok Biennale. This year's Bangkok Art Biennale has been becoming more drawing of international attention. I think there used to be, you know, we artists based in Thailand. To be able to meet those international art society was not that easy. But nowadays Thailand and also southeastern Asian region has been draw attention from the all over the world. So this Bangkok Adam for example was a good example that you know, people from overseas is coming, including Japan, uk, New York. So that was quite new era of Thailand. Also there was a lot of the new venue is opening satellite venue. Not the Bangkok at Biennale itself, but the satellite venue like the Ban Kunstel made by CP Group or Decentral, which is Central Group's new Galilee space and so on is opening same time. So the scale of the the what's happening during event time was quite impactful in my opinion.
[00:08:39] Speaker C: So what makes Bangkok a compelling city for contemporary artists and how does its art scene compare to other cities in Asia?
[00:08:47] Speaker A: I mean first of all I mentioned the things like Thailand is into a new phase. Although the well known artist from Thailand has been quite well recognized internationally. And also same time the creators in Thailand has appointed to the larger Biennale or events in overseas. For example like Greety Aga Wei Won. She is now appointed to document next document cur and so on. So it has been quite like the dynamic. Yeah, very dynamic. The situations happening.
[00:09:28] Speaker C: And do you think the city's unique energy and rhythm inspires your creative process? And perhaps you can share a moment when Bangkok itself sparked a breakthrough in your work.
[00:09:41] Speaker A: I think one of the reasons I moved to Thailand is related to that. Bangkok has a lot of freedom for creators in terms of the safety, securities, cost of productions and so on. For example, like something that you may not be able to realize due to the law or security, safety and so on. Thailand has quite loose.
So something that's risky thing like liability and so on. As I said, it's quite loose at this point yet. So like something that that you cannot do in Australia, Japan even of course in US UK we can do it here. That gives artists a lot of freedom can be very experimental. So that energy creates sort of outstanding in even in a southeastern Asian region compared to Singapore and so on. So for example, one of my work who made a large scale seesaw walk that let people 30 people can get on the one installation with using gravity and so on. It wouldn't be possible to export that work to Singapore unless otherwise. I actually made realize in Thailand first and prove the safety first. So this country is very nice to prove your work fast comparing to the low cost. And then and then that can possibly move to export it to other countries.
[00:11:16] Speaker C: Can we touch a little bit more about process and the actual production of producing your work? I'm guessing there are some highly technical specialists here that can help you realize your work.
[00:11:28] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. It is actually for artists. Those technicians or factory workers or engineers or any of those people who can be part of the team. They are asset for artists. And those people are available in Thailand. They were highly talented engineers or factory workers with the qualities also even the space, storage spaces, production spaces. Some of the workers are from Cambodia or of course Thailand, Myanmar. The labor for work for those factories and still affordable for contemporary artists. So that makes this half is quite unique to be able to produce something bigger.
[00:12:16] Speaker C: Eji, you've been in Bangkok for 12 years. Reflecting on that. How has the contemporary art scene evolved recently and what factors do you think have contributed to its growth?
[00:12:29] Speaker A: First of all, when. When I arrived in Thailand, there was a. The very few white cube galleries like. Like two or three galleries available. And that moved on to the era of a lot of alternative gallery came out and that era passed.
It's white galleries everywhere in Thailand.
[00:12:50] Speaker C: Can you just explain what white galleries are?
[00:12:53] Speaker A: White cube galleries is the gallery space which doesn't. Yeah, literally white cube gallery. So it's like there's a kind of box of white spaces that solely built for creating like. I mean exhibiting artwork itself. Alternative gallery is having a cafes or bars or some other functions so that they can be sustainable not just as Art Galilee, but they have another revenue to be able to sustain. But that era has been quite a long while. But that era is shifted to white cubes. So that means that white cube is Galilee is now sustainable in this country.
[00:13:35] Speaker C: So what role does Bangkok play in the broader Asia Pacific art market? And how does it compare to other regional art centers? For example, Hong Kong with Art Basel Affordable Art Fair. Hong Kong seems to have positioned itself over the last 10 years years as the Asia Pacific hub, particularly with Art Basel. How is Bangkok responding to that?
[00:13:56] Speaker A: I think that the Art Market is kind of fluid. It's always looking for new market based on many factors. But the kind of important factor is that they always like as I mentioned, it's always looking for new market because some of the like Western art for example are quite expensive and affordability for collectors are quite a big part because art industry industry is a quite actually a very very big financial market. So it's relative though to those market. So when the 90s there was the Japan, the big like Murakatakashi Murakami came out and you know all those Japanese art scene become quite like paid attention and would that move to the China in the era of the 2000s and. And then. And then now that Moo is moving to Thailand southeastern Asia region so that you know they're looking for new artists and in a affordable. But now it's becoming not only some of the well known artists is now of course no longer affordable, but it is still a lot. So it's time for the art market to explore this region.
[00:15:07] Speaker C: In my opinion, a provocative question would be perhaps if we take the regional financial hubs of Hong Kong and Singapore, does that reflect in the art market Is Bangkok seen as a tier 2 art market or do you think there is a cultural edge over these more established art markets?
[00:15:26] Speaker A: Has been of course like Hong Kong. Singapore has established earlier in these regions Art Basel Art Fair and established museums government support which Thailand used not to have. But now Thailand start to have that. So government support Thailand Biennale and also private sector is doing Bangkok Biennale and now it's like a big corporation which is CP Group Central. Also Mr. Kunpec who passed away by the author T. Nogra. Sorry for my pronunciation. So they are opening all those new spaces and that is pushing the boundary now. And that gave a lot of attention to the other part of the region. And that's right now is very unique things happening. I'm talking about a lot of financial things but also same time as I mentioned earlier like this. The freedom the capacity of this country possess and the possibility that we can do it here is also like nice mixage. So those two elements, it's a big art exploration from artists and those financial support from the institution, galleries and government. Now it's kind of mixed up and that's becoming very outstanding. What's happening here?
[00:16:49] Speaker C: This interview gives me a really unique opportunity to ask you questions about the intersection of tradition and innovation in artistic practice, particularly with Asian aesthetics. You've lived in la, you've worked in New York, you're a Japanese artist teaching Practitioner at Chulalongkorn University. My question is, how do you think traditional Asian aesthetics and cultural heritage influence contemporary practices in Bangkok and the broader Asia Pacific region?
[00:17:18] Speaker A: Always the contemporary art is a part of the historical art. So the context is quite important.
So in Asia, for example, like AI Weiwei works for like traditional ceramic factories and workers, and they try to kind of preserve those Asian, I mean, Chinese traditional, like ceramic cultures. But he used or to insert different context for like, you know, contemporarity about politics or experience or other elements to mix in those contexts together and create a new narratives. So tradition is always in. In a key component of each artist's background. And also like in my cases. So for example, like, the newest exhibition that I have done was Wave Garden done in Galilee Var. This exhibition is about how to reconstruct the Japanese Zen garden into the new format. So Kong San is always, of course, you know, like, you want to transform and you want to. How, you know, you want to transform into the contemporary context plus the transformation in aesthetic as well too. And I use, for example, like a method of garden making. And for example, like Japanese garden making has always methodology such as having the Isle of Immortal from China, which is sort of like wish of immortality. And this motif of the mountain has been always painted it in all over Asia, especially for Japanese artists painting. So basically we are mountain. Most of the mountain that has been painted in old days is actually like Chinese mountain. But the Japanese Zen garden, for example, was a transformation from this painting to the garden. So the rocks represent actually the mountain of the immortality. And these and then actually garden practice as very, very avant garde elements that they always try to evolve. So somehow like during the process of the period, they make it really minimal, avant garde, almost contemporary art quality garden has been produced during the history and then the modern era. Like, of course, you know, modern era, you know, the contemporary artist has tried to be more universal, kind of like democratizing the culture, like all Asian culture, for example, into the Western cultures and so on. So we start to share those things. And that era interesting part is Mirei Shigemori. He's the garden designer. But he used instead of using Chinese, this Immortal Chinese. I love immortal painting as a motif. He used Kandinsky abstract painting to apply to their garden practice. So modern era, they have used those modernism incorporated. So for example, like. And now my work, recent work is about how I kind of try to reconstruct, evolve that practice further. So I include the Zen gardens water rock element into which is wave. And I'm making Into the kinetic art of wave installation, for example. And also I still keep some of the painting of the motif from the Isle of Imoto, Mount Sumeru, which is coming from India. So we always kind of corroborate, I mean incorporate with those contexts into the new. Also a lot of artists similar way to use it. Anish Kapoda still talk about Mount Meru and Ayurveda as I mentioned.
[00:21:07] Speaker C: So how do you balance respect for cultural traditions with a desire to push artistic boundaries?
[00:21:14] Speaker A: Well, I guess, I mean the contemporary art has to be some element that stimulate present cultures in our brain. So to be able to push that element, it has to have like a new. It has to be something that doesn't exist. And creating something new form or new context or new topic. Sometimes it just can be twist or using those methodology, but like adding some other environmental, sustainable, political, societal issues into it. And so on. So yeah, I guess in my cases I am incorporating sort of artificiality and technology that in the past in a traditional art art didn't have those. There was no. The quality of the digital elements were not available in a traditional art. So as aforementioned, the way of how we can create the work that hasn't that doesn't exist. And those new technology or artificiality I think that tried that will cross the boundary.
[00:22:27] Speaker C: This interview also gives me an opportunity to ask you what do you think is the difference between art and design? I'll give you an example. So my home crafted interpretation is art is something that should never be replicated and design is something that should always be replicated. Discuss.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: Well, that's a really difficult question because a lot of art now it's like architecture design and art in my view is really like a crossing all over. So in. In reality it may like a design project can be art and art can be the design. I think it cannot create this fine definition in it. But I think that the at the end of the day, the landing point is the key. So whether I as a creator decide this I'm creating design project or whether I'm creating an art project project. So that definition of is important. So if I'm making a sort of like, you know, like public art, then even though it looks designed, the landing point is art. So I will make it as a landing point as an art. It's something abstract to say, but it is really like the starting point as okay, is this a design project or is this art project? And that determines either design or art.
[00:23:55] Speaker C: Probing that a bit more in terms of your process design of all Stripes Art is your process from turning vapour into substance the same or is it different if it's art quote unquote or design?
[00:24:09] Speaker A: I think as an artist we of course, you know, everybody thinks that we have a full scale of freedom. But in reality claiming as an artist you have certain practice in continuous practice is very important element. So you know, we as I work on societal project as well as art and science and I try to stay my foot in that category as a contemporary artist. If I go all the way different direction everywhere, then it get out of my art practice. So that it is really important. You know, the contemporary art world is very keen on those like historical context and also historical context of art artists themselves.
[00:25:00] Speaker C: You mentioned your work looking at its role in society and I wanted to ask you, you know, how do you view the role of contemporary art as a platform for addressing pressing social and political issues such as climate change, identity politics and global conflicts?
[00:25:18] Speaker A: I mean current art project. Of course a lot of globally they are mentioning about sustainability of the environmental issues, political issues and so on. So we have a defin the role of expressing the voice toward change or keeping some good deed, but also like to provocate. So we use those. I mean not we use but you know, we not requested.
But yeah, yeah, I mean so these are. These are always there, but also same time like we will be the one to question how the new possibility or the new perspectives for societal role. So that's one thing that artists, including musicians and performers and everyone contribute.
[00:26:12] Speaker C: Can you give an example of in your work? How do you approach using art to provoke thought and inspire meaningful dialogue on these critical topics?
[00:26:22] Speaker A: One of them my practice is playfulness. To me, art is part of a play, act of play. We society has always routines when people come to see art. I think it is important for the people to experience something that was experienced. So for me it's a try to include the leisure part of the element of the art incorporate with the playfulness so the adult can play with the art. So actually this concept is coming from Isamu Noguchi. He already stated in the modernism era that his concern was always about leisure. It was very important for him to consider making his work as a leisure. And I kind of follow his path. Create a playful art with experiences that they are not able to experience otherwise. So instead of going to the theme park for very various wider audiences, but the art can be more playful, but also we can talk about more detail of a concept, context, societies and so on. Incorporated.
[00:27:40] Speaker C: I want to look at the topic of Technology in art as it becomes increasingly integral to contemporary art. How do you see digital mediums, augmented reality, artificial intelligence, perhaps reshaping creative process and audience engagement.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: As for AI VR and I actually already has been working, for example like a VR I very first time when a VL set came out from Oculus, I was the first one kind of like really working on and touching those technology. And it has a chance because new experience definitely can be created through those technologies. But now also same time now new era of the AI. I keep this element of AI as a very positive element. For example, we teach, I think you and I also teach. And in a lot of times, you know, students bring up the ideas and we discuss in tutorial through that we discuss the possibility how we are going to evolve that practice. And a lot of times students stimulate us or you know, bring the very interesting idea that I wouldn't ever thought of or imagined. But the student bring up those, the new ideas and then I can, because of maybe as a role of a teacher we will give further evolve, evolve evolved ideas to do that. So those dialogue between actual people is creating the higher ground to the new artworks or new design. And same time. So now AI for me is like having those another person who can actually talk as another perspective to me. So even so it's just my own project. But I have those kind of like assistant who have different, different idea brought on the table. But that doesn't mean that it's their completely their own idea, but it's like an I input idea to them. And then we, we can develop somehow the father. It can be, I mean some. It can be some visual images, but also same time just one keyword that the AI bring can connect the dot of my idea that I already have. So like even like 10% of the different perspect of the idea that I wouldn't have otherwise will be kind of like created to the new ground in my opinion. So that's kind of like AI. It's very positive in my opinion.
[00:30:23] Speaker C: So following on from that, how do you perceive the impact of digital art platforms and the economic factors on artistic production and distribution?
[00:30:34] Speaker A: I guess maybe I can talk about the history is maybe better to answer for this. For example, like a Gutai group in the 1950s and 1960s, they didn't have of course like you know, those social media or digital platform back in the days. But the reason that, you know, Far east country, Asia, in Japan influenced Western art world, especially in New York that time like the Gutai group influenced the Fluxus movement I believe that I mean it's academically proved that without the Gutai Group Fraxas really didn't happen so always like the consequence happening. So the but long story in short what Gutai Group made unique was that they had this small booklet they distributed all over the world in the 1950s and that made them known and that influenced the people in the artists in New York and so on. So I think the distribution is important and also the AI Weiwei he became very well known also because he always do this blog and that made him who I yeah his work was split and distributed to the to the art world quickly. So in that sense you know the social media and so on is contributing for sure.
[00:31:56] Speaker C: And the rhetorical point here is artist, designer, writer, any creative there is an element of marketing that one inevitably has to do. And I have a slightly cynical point here or I have a cynical position that the most successful artists are outstanding marketeers first an artist second I may be out of touch with current thinking on that but I want to push you on to what extent is success perceived in terms of purchase price of art of artistic work reflected in outstanding marketing.
[00:32:31] Speaker A: I think it's always having struggle and fight against those marketing and also like fight against institutions in art through the history so it's always manifesto comes in to fight against those. Those elite art market and it is very very important part of art for art to be free and the value of the art needs to fight against those marketing and you know those elitism but at the same time it has been always existed as even like Michelangelo Leonardo da Vinci and they are all I believe that they have been very good at you know branding marketing themselves in a certain degree. So ye yeah it's always the that is there and but also same time we need to remind ourselves that art is not made for those market to begin with. It is the core value of art to challenge that. So I think the both way is we have to we cannot both neglect marketing value of it. I think it's a powerful things that maybe I should incorporate more of it but I'm trying to provocate it as well.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: My thanks to our guest Ejisumi there Hacking Kaizen is produced by dsa Nikki edited the program. We'll be back at the same time next week but until then from me Graham Newman. Many thanks for listening.
[00:59:48] Speaker D: Sa, sa, sa sa sa sa sa sa sa sa, sa sa sa sa, sa sa, sa sa sa sa sa, sa, sa sa sa.
