David Hitner on graphic design

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Hacking Kaizen. I'm Graham Newman. Today we're diving deep into the creative mind of David Hitler, one of Britain's most influential graphic designers. With over three decades at the cutting edge of design, David has shaped identities, challenged conventions and and crafted visual narratives that resonate far beyond the surface. From his formative years at Ravensbourne College of Design and Communication and his time at the iconic Hardwirken Studio in Rotterdam, to leading award winning projects at Michael Nash Associates. As founding partner of Studio Small and now running A Common Purpose in London, David's journey is a masterclass in adapting to an ever evolving creative landscape. In this episode, we explore the philosophy that has guided his career. We'll hear how he's navigated seismic shifts in technology, culture and trends, and how he balances creative integrity with the demands of the commercial world. From visceral moments of inspiration to his reflections on design's role in tackling global challenges, David's insights promise to inspire and provoke. So whether you're a designer, a cultural observer, or simply curious about how ideas become graphic design masterpieces, stay tuned as we uncover what it truly means and to design with a common purpose. [00:01:32] Speaker A: All right, we're rolling. So the first topic is to unpack your design philosophy and evolution. The discussion focuses looking at your unique approach to design and reflections on how your style has adapted to changes in technology, trends and culture. [00:01:50] Speaker C: My design philosophy has developed over the years, but by this kind of understanding that design isn't a solely singular process, that actually design by its nature is much better as a collaborative process. And I think when you start off as a designer, you've got this kind of idea that you know, you've got this kind, this special talent that you can change the world, you've got these ideas and then you realize, you go, you graduate into business and then you realize actually it's not about you, it's about the client you're working for, the business you're working for, and the team of designers that, that you're working with. So one of the reasons why I called the practice a common purpose was this idea of expressing this collaborative nature of the design process. So collaborating with clients, because obviously they are who are commissioning you. So it's always better if you can. I always find the better results come from when you work collaborative with a client in the sense that you, they come along on the design journey with you, they understand the decisions that you're making, why you're proposing things collaboratively, also with other professionals that you work with, partners. So Would that be a copywriter, a photographer, a filmmaker, an illustrator, a developer? Their expertise and their input is always really valuable. They know their job better than you know yours. So the skill is actually selecting the right people to work with and then also collaboratively within the studio. Because better work comes from when you share it amongst other designers and like minded people in the studio. [00:03:29] Speaker A: So when you look back on the pivotal moments of this journey that shaped your design philosophy, are there any moments of doubt or exhilaration that made you feel deeply connected with your work? [00:03:44] Speaker C: I think it's only natural as somebody that works within the creative industry that there are moments of doubt. I don't think you can evolve or grow as a creative without doubting and questioning your work. We always have a process here where we make sure that if you're not sure about something, you pin it up, print it out, pin it up, share it with other members of the team. Because often the most interesting work is not work that you're familiar with. You've not seen anybody else do it. You might be taking it out of context and placing it with another context. Therefore sometimes you're not, you're not sure, you know, you're not familiar with it. Does it work? Is it answering the brief? Is it interesting? Is it progressing? Is it progressive in any particular way? So, yeah, I think constantly questioning and on the other side, euphoria. I always find it quite difficult to assess work after you've just produced it. You've been working on it for such a long time, you're so close to it. I usually find that actually it's not within, with, with some distance. A few months you might come back and to see something and you'll go, yes, we did a good job there. We answered the brief, we're happy with the work, how it, you know, the, how it looked, how it functions, communicates. Yeah. So then the more the sort of, the proudness of, or the sense of achievement, I'd say rather than proud comes with some distance. And then also you know, people, you might, people are unfamiliar with your work, you, you're talking or presenting to them and they respond to something and then you sort of. Yeah, then. And you know, you feel that that's been, you know, something that you, you're proud to put your name to. [00:05:25] Speaker A: You mentioned the studio earlier, David, and I'd like you to perhaps unpack the guiding principles of how the creative decision making process works within the studio. [00:05:37] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think we're a small studio, there's six of us in Total, so primarily all design focused. So we have different levels of experience within the studio. Myself obviously being the most senior, but structurally wise. In terms of how work gets distributed within the studio, it really depends on, I suppose, the type of project that comes in. Because each of the designers have their own, I suppose their own sort of speciality or bias. They have their own sort of preference on the type of work they like to work on. Invariably clients, they like to obviously see the principle and the starting off of a project. And because of the size of the studio, I'm very much involved on everything in terms of having my eyes and being aware of everything that's being created, but also as well to design for a studio to sort of grow and develop, you have to put trust in the people that you've employed and your decisions and allow them to grow as designers. And they bring their own. Everyone brings their own experiences and interpretation to projects. My role really within the studio is to create a common approach to our work rather than a particular style. So I mean, again, it's very difficult to assess your own work. But people have said to me that there is a particular approach, style, an approach to our work which is, I suppose we look to simplify and distill down design to basically its core principles, or we don't look to over elaborate. And I think maybe that's what I understand that people see in the work of the studio, this kind of ability to be able to simplify and distill sometimes what might be quite complex piece of communication or points that a client might want get across. [00:07:40] Speaker A: And looking at the body of your work retrospectively, there's this kind of magic of design principles and creativity. And I wanted to ask you, how do you decide when to follow your intuition versus your logic in your creative process and how does that choice make you feel during the moment? [00:08:05] Speaker C: I think it's always really helpful to take that and put it down on paper, work it on the computer, then it's out of your mind, then you can start thinking about other solutions, other alternatives. Also I think for design to evolve and also for design to evolve and for designers to evolve is that you don't look to repeat the same project, the same type of work, the same approach. We very much a belief in that. Each client's brief is different. So what might be a suitable approach or pertinent approach to one client's brief? You may have exactly the same client brief from another client, but actually we're not doing our job unless we're communicating the personality of that client. There are some studios that have a very strong style and identity which clients go to them for, which I think is, you know, works for them. But that's not who we are as a studio. We like to reflect. I find it much more interesting reflecting and expressing a client's personality rather than the personality of the studio. [00:09:12] Speaker A: I'm going to push you on that and be quite provocative. Having graduated From Ravensbourne in 1990, there was a certain inevitable style. Under the stewardship of Jeff White and other eminent professors, Sean Perkins, et cetera, and those three golden years at undergraduate level, like sponges. And we try and, you know, be as influenced as around us, our peers, what's happening in the design industry. And also the influence of our tutors and supervisors. And the. The kind of rhetorical question is that, are there any specific movements or designers that have influenced your work or continue to influence your work? [00:09:57] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I sort of count myself as being very lucky being in design education in and graduating in the 90s. We got the experience of our tutors on a daily basis. And Ravensbourne was very intriguing to me. I was grown towards. Drawn towards typography. And, you know, at that time, that was the. That was the art college to go for typography. They taught the Swiss style. So I was very much sort of educated in this kind of European aesthetic of design. Form follows function, which I think is still a guiding principle of everything we do is again, that idea of simplicity. Don't add anything in the. Into the design that's not required. In fact, one of the greatest lessons I learned under Jeff White was in my first year at Ravensbourne, was if a design isn't working, you don't add more to it. You subtract. You subtract from that design and then you get to a point where it is working and then you decide whether it needs anything else. But essentially it's, you know, I'm not an advocate of more is more. I'm very much as less is More is. Is one of the founding principles that really. That I took away my art college education. I do think it's a shame these days that students don't get as much tutor time as I used to get when I. When I went to art college, because, again, the more time you spend with people, the more you can you sort of absorb from them. So I suppose we were very much molded, again, I said, in that kind of Swiss, European heritage. So the guys at 8vo who created Octavo magazine, they worked on posters for the Hacienda nightclub in Manchester. Amongst other things, Museum Van Boyman's in. In Holland. They were really interesting to us because they were taking Swiss design from the 60s and 70s, but reinterpreting it in a more contemporary way also. Now I'm really showing my age now. Apple Macs started to come in and they started to use Apple Macs as well in their design. So that was really interesting to see how they were taking, yeah, Traditional design principles and values and then using a technology to then develop those. [00:12:08] Speaker A: So looking back at year one at Ravensbourne and perhaps even further, looking to your BTEC General Art and Design diploma from Amersham College, what was the first piece of design or the first moment in your career that truly resonated with you on a visceral level? [00:12:26] Speaker C: My. I suppose my initial design interest was through record covers. So, yeah, I suppose understanding sort of the typography on record covers. So I liked a lot of the early sort of madness, sort of two tone. They had a very strong graphic image and sort of band logos and marks was really interesting. And then actually through my development and love of music, I was very interested in hip hop and rap. And then obviously from that you had all the graffiti writing in New York City. So I used to draw a lot of letter forms and then from that, that's where my interest in typography grew into this understanding, this kind of use of letterforms and how to make letterforms expressive, how to communicate through typography. [00:13:15] Speaker A: I think that's really, really interesting because looking at the somewhat prescriptive look and feel of a Ravensbourne graduate and married with your love of expressive typography and graffiti kind of segues into. And I'm going completely off piste already on the questions. What I would only consider now must have been an incredible privilege to work at Hardwirken in Rotterdam. So can you tell us a bit about the Hardwicken experience? [00:13:45] Speaker C: Yeah, again, that came through sort of Ravensbourne. So obviously you had student. I'm sorry, Electra. Sean Perkins came in. He'd just been into the Royal College of Art under the directorship of Gert Dunbar. And so we were kind of introduced to Dutch design and Jeff White, our tutor in the first year, he had an interest and had an interest in Dutch design as well. So the work of people like Total Design, Ben Boss. So as. So, yeah, so I was really. There was a group of. Really intrigued by Dutch design at that time, where they were taking typography and using it very expressively. They were also working in the real as well. So they were Using typography, making it out of different forms, photographing it. So that, that I felt that was really interesting as well, this kind of taking typography off the page and into more of a. A set or an environment. So yeah, so from that when I graduated I was really had a real interest and passion for Dutch design. So I decided I'd like to go over and work, try and get some work in one of the studios. And at the time they were offering internships which were three month placements with the agencies. And yeah, I just found it a really refreshing approach to design that they had also as well Holland as a nation of the Netherlands has a fantastic design appreciation. So there was more of a kind of a willingness or an understanding from clients. So yeah, it was. That first week was a bit of a culture shock. It was the first time that I'd lived in a. In a country outside. Yeah, lived outside of the uk. The studio was out in the dock area of Rotterdam in this old warehouse. It was I suppose really immersive experience. They were a really interesting studio in the sense the two principals set it up, Rick and Hillard. They. They were known as having a bit more of a punk aesthetic than a lot of other studios in, in Holland. And when I say punk aesthetic, I mean that they were. I suppose they worked a lot in the physical. So they cut and pasted things. They had. One side of the studio was a traditional design studio. The other side of the studio was almost like an abandoned wareh where you could make and build things. One of the projects I had at the time, they were. They used to do posters for the Rotterdam Film Festival and the logo was a tiger. So they die, cut the tiger into a piece of wood and then set the wood on fire and photographed it. So it was all this kind of strange sort of slightly anarchic approach to design. But coming from such a sort of rigid environment of Ravensbourne in the sense that this is the correct way of working on typography, it really allowed me to kind of free up, I suppose my design thinking in the sense that it's okay to. To break the rules a bit. And then also actually there's interest in things that are slightly ugly as well as things that are very well mannered and very sort of considered looking that actually there's a real. You can create real interest in attention between. Between two. Those two really. [00:17:01] Speaker B: So let's look at the. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Now David, let's look at the role of. Can we call it graphic design or is it communication design? Now I'm not quite sure. [00:17:09] Speaker C: Yeah. Or is it content? [00:17:12] Speaker A: How do you see. Let's stick with graphic design because we're a similar vintage. How do you see the role of graphics in addressing global challenges now? For example, sustainability and inclusivity? [00:17:26] Speaker C: I think it's never been as more important. I think particularly at the moment where there's so much information out being sort of bombarded to people, that the role of graphic designer as kind of communicator and editor has never really been more. More important. When I started out in design, if somebody asked me what. What graphic designer did, I would say that they. They inform and. And they promote. Whereas. And the role of sales was more of an advertising. Sort of fell within more of an advertising remit. But over time and particularly today, there's a real blurring of the lines between advertising design and that includes branding and marketing. So I think, you know, with there's sort of. We. Our roles are much more multifaceted than they used to be 10, 15, 20 years ago. In terms of the importance of a design to promote sustainability and ethics. Again, I don't think it's ever been as. As important as it is now. I think it's really important for designers to always push sustainability and ethics as indispensable in projects. I think also the choices we make in terms of how we realise ideas, we have to be really mindful of that as well because if you're producing anything these days, you have to make sure it's as sustainable as possible. [00:18:51] Speaker A: Can you share a recent example, a recent project of putting that into practice? [00:18:56] Speaker C: I suppose quite often it's not one big idea, it's a series of smaller ideas. So again, it's sort of thinking about intelligent ways to produce things rather than cutting down on waste as well. Even down to things. When we're working on websites, we're looking at streamlining server energy, how you, you know, the size of files that the client uploads. So always trying to manage them going forward as well. So it's sort of. I suppose those are things you don't necessarily would associate with the work or something the designer would suggest. I think also as well, just always making sure. Whichever. If we're specifying any type of physical print or packaging that it's produced on the most sustainable and in the most sustainable way. [00:19:51] Speaker A: And do you have to respond to clients ESG requirements now, as a designer, do you have to. To have a boilerplate in your proposal that perhaps responds to the environment, social and governance requirements from clients? I'm thinking of your Work in packaging, for example. [00:20:14] Speaker C: No, absolutely. I think for clients now they're asking more, they're asking for more of that information from you and they're also demanding that you work in that way. We haven't quite yet, yet got to the stage where we have. We're having to submit, I suppose, sustainability report on the business to tender for work. But it's not something I. Something I could certainly see being being requested and also something that the business will need to do going forward. I think it's only, you know, we're expecting our clients to do that. We're a. As much as, you know, consumers are demanding that of brands, clients will start demanding that of the businesses they work with as well and it can only be a good thing. [00:20:59] Speaker A: Now we're sitting in this wonderful studio in Camden. You have many international clients. Over the years, your work has been translated into Japanese and Chinese. I just wanted to ask you, how do you approach designing for a global audience whilst respecting cultural nuances? Or does that not matter? [00:21:18] Speaker C: I think it's very important to us to respect cultural nuances. I think we've been quite fortunate in the sense that the work that we've had translated into different languages and been seen across the world as mainly being for British brands. So they're looking for the British sensibility. For example, the work we undertake for Margaret Howe. So we've been working with Margaret and the business for probably 15 years, which is an incredible privilege really, to have a client that you grow with over that time. I think it's also there becomes an inherent understanding of that business culturally, not only their customers in the uk, but their customers in Japan and also in South Korea. So. And realize you're kind of, you're communicating the essence of what Margaret Howell is. So in a sense that's what people, that's what customers are interested in in those markets as well. [00:22:17] Speaker A: The work you've done for MHL is outstanding. It's a huge brand in Japan and South Korea. Pernod Ricard as well, you work with very closely. So I guess my question is how do you balance creative integrity with commercial demands? [00:22:33] Speaker C: That's one of the most interesting things I find about working as a designer, that balance of integrity and commercial demands. And I think that's. That's what keeps the job fresh and interesting is this idea that obviously they're. Because of how design is developed, it's no longer about informing, it's more about sales and promoting. So it's then it's understanding the culture of that particular client and that and the customer as well, understanding the customer that they're looking to connect with. So the work we undertake for Margaret Howe is very different from the work that we undertake for Pernod Ricard. Well, in the sense that they're both. So they both have different aesthetics in the sense that Margaret Howe is very sort of paired back, simplified Pernod Ricard. It's more about, I suppose is a more traditional interpretation of what luxury is. Whereas Margaret Howe is very quiet luxury. But it's still, it's still the same essentially. You're still communicating this idea of provenance, quality and then also the experience of that product. So more so with Pernod Ricard, where the work we do for them, which is creating films and art direction around releases of certain of Royal Salute whiskies, it's a very high end age whisky. So there's a lot of craft and expertise involved in that product. So again it's communicating this idea of craft and expertise, whether it be a piece of fashion for Margaret Howe or whether it be a blend of whisky for Royal Salute. [00:24:09] Speaker A: Let's move on and look at how we navigate the business of design at the moment. In particular, we cannot ignore our new overlord AI. And I want to get your take on how this could potentially influence the way we work as designers or the way we approach projects. What's your take on the big AI debate in the graphics industry? [00:24:35] Speaker C: I think it's really interesting ICR AI is more of a tool than an end solution. So it's the same really being of that age. When I remember when Apple Macs were introduced, how everybody thought that paper was dead and it wouldn't exist anymore. But there's still a role for paper. I think there's a role for AI within all forms of work. It's how we use that as a tool in design. My current feeling at the moment is where I find design interesting is where you have this blend of AI or cgi, but also you have this kind of realistic, I suppose, human traits to work as well. I think if anything, I think people don't respond very well if something feels too synthetic. So it's about bringing that kind of reality, those kind of imperfections, those kind of fingerprints, working with AI to. To kind of build in those imperfections, those idiosyncrasities. And I think that's what's interesting. I don't think my personal feeling is you don't want to make some. I don't want to fool people with anything we do. I think it's really important. If you're using AI, it's for a reason and it's because it's the best solution for that. And, you know, for me, I'm not interested in making something that looks so perfect you can't tell the difference. I'm interested in the bits around the edges, space in between. You know, I suppose it's the same if you take a music analogy. You know, the drum machine was invented, then drungle drum and bass made a whole genre out of time, stretching and almost kind of glitching. And so I think there's some really interesting areas to explore there rather than just perfection. [00:26:26] Speaker A: Yes, I think we have nothing to fear. And I feel, I think intrinsically, as a professional practitioner of graphic design, we are, are not necessarily driven by salary or bonus. We are driven by creative expression and how best to answer the challenges of the client and ultimately the customer. And I feel that intrinsic visceral drive will always be there. And you can see it in work. I believe you can see it in work. [00:26:59] Speaker B: Does the studio. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Do you draw in the studio? [00:27:02] Speaker C: Yeah, do we draw? Probably not as much as we should do, but we do try and get work out of the computers and also we're very open to printing things, you know, spraying things. I think that again, that comes back from some of those founding years over in Holland working for Hardwarken. I think it's really interesting to add a human touch or some sort of more kind of physical nature to the work, even if you're then rescanning it and using it in a digital realisation. And I think going back to your, going back to your comment on AI, I think I expressed more my original answer on the OWL and the output, but actually, you know, the learning to use AI within the process is really interesting as well. I mean, we can already see it in very, you know, with how Adobe are introducing it and ultimately the market will decide how it uses what, what of their innovations will get taken up and which won't be so. And again, going back to referencing, when Mac became much more prolific, there were certain types of industries or certain roles that designers used to do, which they don't. They don't do anymore. And is the profession any worse for it? No, it's not. It's better for it. So I think you have to sort of adapt and work with these innovations. [00:28:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, retouching, perfect example. [00:28:19] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And there used to be things like, you know, when you were setting copy, you stuff to send it out to a type bureau and cut it up and repaste it and all these kind of. Anyway, it seems like I'm from the Victorian times in England, so the turn of the century. But yeah, it does seem like that now. And also the possibilities, I mean, you look at the possibilities that are created through digital coding and how. And how motions come along and become so much more of a. Of a tool or in graphic design. So, you know, where originally it was all static, whereas now it's really interesting to explore that dimension as well. Sound. So, yeah, I think it's a really exciting time to be a designer. [00:29:00] Speaker A: Now there'll be a lot of our audience are undergraduates in the UK and in Asia Pacific, and here's your chance to stick the knife in or not. Do you think formal design education is fit for purpose? [00:29:16] Speaker C: That's a good question. I think formal design education will always have a place because I think there are fundamentals in design in how it. In a sense, in the way an artist will always need to understand drawing, shape and form. I think designers have to understand that as well. It's a way of looking, seeing and interpreting technology. It's been fantastic, again as a tool. But actually the fundamentals and design is all about communication. So, you know, it's how you choose to communicate, what is the correct media or what is the media that responds best to a brief. So the starting point is still the same. I mean, interestingly, when I was at college in the late 80s, I used to look at the work of Pentagram and in the sort of late 70s and think, oh, that's not stylistic, it wasn't on trend or it didn't feel relevant. But actually when you truly looked at it, the ideas were still really relevant. And I think that's the other thing about design. Design's about ideas and not application. I think good design is a combination of strong ideas and strong execution. [00:30:30] Speaker A: What do you think young designers entering the industry are missing, intellectually or intuitively? You. And does it concern you? [00:30:39] Speaker C: I think I think questioning is a really important thing for young designers. So I think it's very easy to look at inspiration from the same places, you know, so you're picking up from your social media, you're looking at certain sites. I think it's really important to try and broaden your. Your reference points beyond the normal media. I think reading is really important rather than just looking at things visually. I think it's really important to kind of understand the thinking behind or the process behind things. Also, design is a human response to a human, human requirement. So that's what innovates, ideas, thinking, inspiration. You get ideas from exposing yourself to as much and that's not to kind of overload yourself, but you know, stepping outside of your comfort zone, looking at things that you're not necessarily familiar with. We have quite an extensive library here in the studio. I encourage the designers to look at the books for reference, also magazines as well because there's items within those that don't appear online. So it's very interesting. Actually one of the designers who works here was, when he was at art college, he was set a brief and the tutor asked them to pull together mood boards from Pinterest and the next day they came back. Pretty much all of them had the same references on there. So although again, Pinterest is a great tool, you know, really useful to the designer, but you can't, you need to pull your reference points from, from further afield. [00:32:15] Speaker A: Yeah. If you want to understand the animals, you need to get out into the jungle, Right? [00:32:19] Speaker C: Indeed. Very good. [00:32:20] Speaker A: So what advice would you give young aspiring designers wanting to enter the industry? [00:32:26] Speaker C: Be thick skinned. It's tough to get your first start. There's a lot of designers out there, a lot of good designers as well. I think don't be put off by rejection. I think keep, keep applying, keep talking to people, going to see people if you can, getting in front of people. I think you know all very well messaging people on Instagram or LinkedIn. But actually if you can get, if it's possible to go and physically meet them and see them and show them your work. Also talk about the ideas behind your work, not just the finished execution. These days with, with the tools we have at our disposal, you can, you can show a finished idea and it doesn't actually unpack the thinking that preceded that. And actually design agencies are interested in the thinking as well as much as the execution. [00:33:16] Speaker A: Yes, I think the, I mean the process of talent acquisition, talent recruitment hasn't changed. And the only asset arguably a design agency has are the people that work in the studio. And when we were aspiring junior designers, we would have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. Call up they had a design and turn up with an A2 Daler portfolio. Not much has changed. But when you're looking to potentially hire somebody, those conversations around the margins. So sketch sketchbooks. Yeah. Do students still produce sketchbooks or would you, would you suggest it's those kind of annotations and those other conversations that are not necessarily the finished piece of work that also might differentiate somebody? [00:34:04] Speaker C: Yeah, I think sketchbooks know they're A long gone thing. But I think what is interesting is when young designers come to see me and they've, they've taken certain elements, they show the workings within the process. So, and then you can talk more about that than the finished, the finished piece essentially because that's in some ways that's part of being a raw young designer. You might, you might have done some fantastic thinking and you've just decided to execute it in a different way or you might have taken another strand from your early work, your research work, where actually the hub might the nub of the actual answer to the brief will be in your working. So I know it's not very glamorous. People want, you know, people, everything is so polished on, in the digital world now. But this idea of, again I think it goes back to this idea of fingerprints, how you think about things, how you approach things, your reference points. I think also it's much more engaging when you go and see an agency, if you can talk around a project and unpack the idea and maybe some of the areas that you investigated that didn't come to fruition because again that's all part of developing. As a designer you're not supposed to be the finished article. When you come out of art college, you've been given the skill set to go into industry. But actually, you know, half majority of your education happens within industry as well. [00:35:26] Speaker A: So on a personal note, David, looking back on your journey, what was the most significant piece of advice you received? Not necessarily from a tutor, maybe somebody you know when you were two to three years into the industry. How did that advice shift shape the way you guided yourself aspirationally as a designer? [00:35:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't know, advice. So several things that have stayed, stayed with me. I think I referred back to, you know, Jeff White at Ravensbourne saying, you know, reduce, reduce, reduce. If something's not working, go back to fundamentals. When I was in Holland, Rick Vermona once said to me, and I think he's kind of his anti attitude that you know, if a client likes, likes a piece of work they've produced first time, then they've not tried hard enough. Which I thought was really funny, maybe that's not. But what it means is you haven't, you haven't really pushed the client out of their comfort zone generally. And I think it's quite a well, well used practice within design that you generally, when you're at the start of a project, your first presentation to a client, you'll present three ideas. One that's safe, one that's a little less safe one that's kind of a bit more out there. Generally it's, you know, no client really wants to be known as being boring and saf. Well, some do, but, you know, the majority like. And therefore you kind of. But you, you scare them a bit with the more out there one. And therefore. Yeah, but they can see the potential. You know, they can see that actually you've explored this idea that there's more than one way to answer a brief. So other pieces of advice I got once, once told by a client as well, never be afraid to sack a client. Which is quite an interesting one because sometimes the relationship doesn't work. Work, you know, and you have to be big, big and brave because, you know, with financial demands and everyone, it's very easy to take projects or, or start projects. But actually, you know, design is a relationships business. You're only as good as your client if the relationship isn't working. You have to be sort of mature enough to kind of say, yeah, we've gone as far as we can go on this and you know, regardless of the, the implement, the implications. But, you know, thankfully that's only ever happened once in my career. But, you know, having that in your mind that you, you know, you, you've got that ability to do it. [00:37:49] Speaker A: I remember Michael Beirut famously said, you'll never turn a bad client into a good client. [00:37:54] Speaker C: Correct, Absolutely. [00:37:55] Speaker A: And the other truism is people do business with their friends, so make more friends. [00:38:00] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean, like say, yeah, for young designers, just go out there and meet as many people, talk to as many people. Yeah, I think that's the best, the best way. I mean, you're only, as ever, good as your client will allow you to be be or so actually that's, you know, your best work is produced for your best clients. It's. It's not rocket science. [00:38:21] Speaker A: So we're recording this just before Christmas. It's towards the end of the, the year. David, what's 2025 ahead of you for the studio? Tough times or good times? [00:38:34] Speaker C: I think it's an interesting environment at the moment. You know, clients, you know, there's a will to do things, but also there's a caution, particularly in the UK market, of not over committing. So I think that makes it a slightly more interesting environment. But I think there's still lots of people out there that are interested in doing good work and when times are a little tougher, actually it's the ones that invest in design marketing that generally come out better from the other side. So yeah, I mean in my ambition really for the studio, I mean we're six people here. Would be nice to grow the studio a little bit more. More. We do a lot of digital work at the moment, which I like and I'm pleased with a lot of the digital work. Well, all of digital work we do, it has a sort of a print craft sensibility to it. Even within the digital realm, I still feel there's a role for print within design. I think certain, certain aspects of, or communications for clients. It's not, it doesn't have cut through but there are other, other areas where I think printing something, having something tangible is a really, you know, I think it communicates, expresses the brand and what the business. What's the word I'm looking for? [00:39:48] Speaker A: Sense driven design, I think. [00:39:50] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. [00:39:51] Speaker A: This is something that Kenya Hara is very big on and he, he almost laments the loss of sense driven design. The kind of, you know, what it looks like, what it sounds like, what it smells like. And I think there's, that's a big challenge, particularly towards digital transformation for businesses. And how do you keep that sense of being visceral? I think the last time we sat down was seven years ago and I asked you to talk about the graphic design gestalt, form, line, shape, pattern, gradation, the core elements and principles of the professional practice. And, and you also included typography. I think you have a passion for typography. The body of your work over 30 years, to many appears that it's exquisite typography. Is this something that still interests you? Do you think typography is still the core DNA of what you do? [00:40:55] Speaker C: I think yes, I think it is. Graphic design fundamentally is about communication and it's about the presentation of information visually. So I think, you know, type of typography is, is, is a fundamental, I think, you know, obviously these days there's a lot of focus on image but actually if you, you know, the two have to be worked hand in hand again you can have a fantastic piece of communication with great imagery. But if the typography lets it down then, then it's not. Yeah, then it doesn't, it's not fit for purpose. So. Yeah. And you know, that's also, you know, when I'm talking about typography as well, I'm also talking about user interfaces as well. You know, digital media as well. You know, how type works and how, how you can take, take a customer through or a consumer through a process. So it's about kind of breaking down information into understandable chunks. So yeah, I think in that sense, I think typography is still. Yeah, it has to be a fundamental of design and I'm talking graphic design, obviously. Fundamental of graphic design. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Well, that, that very kindly prompts me to my last provocative question is, and I remember this, and you will go on record, you talked to me two years ago informally and said I no longer recognize the industry that I entered. Discuss. [00:42:26] Speaker C: I suppose, yeah, I suppose that. Yeah, I suppose what I trained to do at college and what I did when I first started in design is completely different from what I'm doing now. I think also there's. Yeah, that would naturally change through experience. But I think also, you know, we've had some massive changes in that time. Digital social was something that didn't exist anymore. I think the world's become more commercial. So again, like I said earlier, we're not informing and we're not promoting. We're now, you know, we're now kind of, I suppose, selling essentially, you know. Yeah. So obviously when I started off in design, there was no foresight of, of the Internet, Internet, social media. So that's something that's, that's changed the way that we work, I'd say these days there's a lot of content creation. So even though I said typography is a core fundamental, there's a fair number of projects that we undertake have no typographic output in it as well. We do lots of art direction now. We learn lots of motion as well, digital interactions, animations, those type of things. But they're all fundamentally communication. So. And they're expressing a requirement that a client, you know, would like to express whether that's gain for customer or a consumer to get greater understanding of a product or service or it's driving them into. Yeah, driving sales. [00:43:57] Speaker B: My thanks to our guest David Hitner. There Hacking Kaizen is produced by dsa. We'll be back at the same time next week. [00:44:04] Speaker C: Week. [00:44:04] Speaker B: But until then, from me, Graham Newman, many thanks for listening.