Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Hacking Kaizen. I'm Graham Newman. In this episode we talk to Professor Timur McThong and three students from Tulalongkong University's International Program in Communication Design. We're diving into one of the most talked about topics in the workplace, Gen Z. From higher education to startups, SMEs to listed companies and and even NGOs, this generation is reshaping how we think about talent, collaboration and leadership. But are they misunderstood? We'll start by looking at the myths. Are Gen Z's overly idealistic, extroverted and lacking critical thinking? Or is this perception rooted in the generational bias? We'll explore how leaders can bridge this gap and adopt their organizations to better engage this emerging workforce.
[00:00:56] Speaker C: Everyone should just view Gen Z's as regular people. Like we're not that different basically. And I also think that in workplaces transparency and communication is very important for us and also kind of like being open minded as we were raised and we grew up differently due to generation gaps. I think like being open minded and like transparency with like the work and different kind of like aspects in here and like, kind of like communicating with us would help a lot.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: Stress and ambiguity are real challenges for Gen Z. Reporting higher levels of anxiety than any other generation. We'll discuss what's driving this and how can organisations create cultures that support mental health and resilience. We'll also discuss flexible working culture, real time feedback and how these approaches benefit everyone, not just Gen Z. And looking ahead as Gen Z step into leadership roles, how can their focus on collaboration, values and emotional intelligence redefine work? We begin by asking the Gen Z's Badin, Chinny and Nicky what they think of themselves and their role in society and the workplace.
[00:02:11] Speaker D: Let's start by debunking the Gen Z myths and rethinking the Gen Z worker. Do you think Gen Zs are misunderstood in the workplace? And what can leadership do to bridge the perception gap?
[00:02:23] Speaker C: So I actually think there are some myths that are untrue as I've personally experienced them myself as when I was talking to a lot of people in like workplaces they often say that Gen Z's are lazy or like not hard working and like they wouldn't want to kind of like work in a workplace that it has too much effort. Like kind of like for instance like art directing or like coming to like advertising agency. A lot of them said that like they perceive that Gen Zs won't come to work here as they can make more money in easier ways. Kind of like they can do part time like social media and influencing and other stuff that can actually make easy money. But I think that's not true. I think it differs to each perspectives like what they want to pursue and some people, they actually do want to come into this field but they don't know how and it's very difficult. That is not very open like the work hiring to the public. And a lot of these cases I think applies to many different also job opportunities.
[00:03:23] Speaker E: Okay, I am curious though and I want you to jump in here as like to you guys, you're the older generation. Just from your heart, what do you think the perspective is on Gen Z? I just want to hear it straight from you.
[00:03:33] Speaker F: Gen Z is first of all they are young. And regarding the word young, I mean it's like every younger generation have older generations and we share a different perspective in worldview. For example and the way I see Gen Z is because she's people, you know, like we have learned, grew up and live our life in different contexts that you guys are grew up. So I think you guys are younger generation with different context that you grew up with. That's all. So I think toward my end that we might need to try to understand the way you grew up and the way you live your life.
[00:04:10] Speaker E: Right. So I think the way that I think about it is I, I think Gen Z has a little bit of a different mindset when it comes to job opportunity, making money, income and things like that. I think it comes down to a coup. Things two come to mind. One of it is being passionate about something. I think we grew up in a generation where most of our parents are like, oh, just find something that makes you happy, do things that you love. And I think it gives a certain insecurity and makes you question do I really like what I'm doing here?
[00:04:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I have to agree with both of them. I do think there is like a little bit of an expectation that we do have to find a job that will make money and a job that makes us happy at the same time. And most of the time it's quite, quite hard to balance this. But I do feel like, you know, the presumption that there is like a gap between the generation, even though there might not be, is sort of exemplified. And by assuming that there's this like gap and like the inability to connect it sort of pushes the gap further even though it might not be that wide.
[00:05:08] Speaker D: Professor Timur, what does higher education need to do to be fit for purpose? In response to this?
[00:05:14] Speaker F: That's Neat questions. So I think like the way educational institution need to really rethink about the structures of teaching and learning activities or platform that might fit with Gen Z or younger generations is that older educator and manager or whoever involved in all this need to really understand the Gen Z. Yeah. So if they do rethink about it and readjusting the way teaching and learning activities could occur in the current situations that might fit with Gen Z, I think they that will be just fine.
[00:05:52] Speaker D: I want to focus on challenging stereotypes about Gen Zs being overly idealistic or extroverted. Data from a recent Deloitte survey suggests that many Gen Zs are methodical, risk averse and have a value structured approach. And this contrasts common assumptions.
[00:06:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I think currently the majority of careers that we can choose are more outspoken or rely a lot on us sort of networking through our little society. It creates the stereotype that we are so keen on sort of just going out there and then making connections rather than you know, planning or like doing a lot of things. I do think the majority of us actually are more introverted than extroverted but being in an environment that requires us to be extroverted we sort of have to develop that skill a little bit further. I think it's sort of the way that we're expected to be as well. Knowing that there is an expectation to do this sort of makes us define ourselves as this way. Like there is already an expectation for us to be a certain type of way from the previous generations. Sort of make us more inclined and also like the way that we are taught to be make us more inclined to act a certain type of way as well.
[00:07:03] Speaker C: Yeah, I would have to agree with Nikki also but personally I think there's a lot of kind of like differences in perspective within Gen Z too. Like everyone is kind of like different and we all have our different input on how we are. So I think like kind of like stereotypes can't really like cover what what we're expected to do or what we are like personally. But I just think that workplaces have evolved drastically from like the past to now and I think that a point is that we grew up quite differently as we grew up with like Internet already and then how we were kind of like raised and how we were like our society, our kind of like culture is quite different. But I think personally that stereotype doesn't really kind of functions or work to explain the whole generation.
[00:07:48] Speaker E: I think there is yeah that certain expectation and I think it is a little bit skewed when it comes to perceptions and trying to get the job that you want or trying to live your idealistic life. Especially since now it's like you have such a window into other people's lives. Like, oh look how great my life is. That expectation kind of puts a certain pressure on you. It's like, oh, look at how these people are doing. They're doing so well. How do I get that without climbing and failing? And I think that does make Gen Z more or at least for me personally, it makes me think that, that I do want to like avoid risk.
[00:08:20] Speaker F: So Puddin, what's your idealistic life?
[00:08:22] Speaker E: An idealistic life for me, I, I think I'm still in search for that answer. Preferably I'm doing something that, that I like not only as fun but also as a living enough to support me and maybe a future family. But I think something I do think about lot is my one requirement is making more money than my parents.
[00:08:43] Speaker D: Gen Z's are sometimes perceived as lacking critical thinking skills such as analysis, evaluation and problem solving. For example, evaluating the validity of a report by identifying biases, assumptions or gaps in data, or designing a strategy. Do you think this perception is accurate or is it a misunderstanding rooted in generational differences?
[00:09:06] Speaker C: I think it's a misunderstanding maybe possibly to generational differences because Gen Zs are. Personally I think that we are a generation that's very flexible with our working workplace and our ethics as we kind of like have to evolve and change all the time. But I personally think about critical thinking. I don't think it kind of like is able to sum up the generation or using that as we can have like perspective differences due to generational gaps and we might perceive differently what is correct or wrong.
[00:09:37] Speaker A: I like to agree with shinny as well, but I do think there are some valid claims to us lacking a little bit of critical thinking. I think this comes more from lack of experience rather than anything because I do think as we're entering the workforce, we're not necessarily used to needing to check for validity reports and also sort of like the way that we are raised through the Internet, like our social feeds are sort of an echo chamber. So most of what we consume already aligns with our personal beliefs. So we don't necessarily need to fact check or disagree as much.
[00:10:07] Speaker E: I agree with that point a lot. I think yes, there is some generational differences, but I don't want to speak on behalf of everyone. I think, I'm sure in everyone's generation, you know, that maybe there's definitely a couple of people in your peer group that lacks maybe the critical thinking that people want in the workplace. But I do agree when it comes to Internet echo chambers and being presented with answers right away, I think it makes you lack critical thinking skills or it's underdeveloped until you actually have to think for yourself when it comes to being in a workforce or in higher education or something like that.
[00:10:40] Speaker D: Professor Timur in terms of pedagogy, these critical thinking skills are in the higher dimensions of Bloom's taxonomy of learning. So how can we do more to hardwire these competencies? Because this is what organizations are really looking for in terms of talent acquisition and talent acceleration and not necessarily design execution.
[00:10:59] Speaker F: In order to answer that, I would like to share a bit of the practice we do. Is the project based actually. So rather than giving out a solid brief or expected outcomes in all their design practice, we do give rooms for the students to initiate or circle around the topics quite a bit and try to formulate that. And I think that will lead to the point where, where they can be critically think about what they are doing and what they are aiming for rather than specific on the outcomes alone. So that might help shaping them to formulate critical thinking because it's not really easy to just being critical in one night.
[00:11:42] Speaker D: Let's probe a little bit more about the Gen Z perspective on anxiety, ambiguity and adaption. Gen Zs report high levels of stress compared to other generations. So Ginny, what are the primary factors driving this?
[00:11:56] Speaker C: I think a big part place is like FOMO or the fear of missing out. Especially with like a lot of lifestyles being presented through social media. Personally we view these kind of like an ideal like we want to kind of like maybe achieve them but sometimes like Baden has talked about recently, like being a CEO at a young age or kind of like being successful at a young age. So I think that kind of like puts some anxiety and pressure on us to be able to like succeed quickly in life which isn't the case for all of us. And as we have different approaches to life, I think sometimes like with social media being so like easy for us, we kind of like view that a lot. I think that puts some anxiety and pressure on what we feel.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: I think we're also really good at targeting people's again fear of missing out. And we've also become quite predatory with the way that we're presenting a certain lifestyle because a lot of influencers now are sort of presenting this lifestyle of starting from the bottom and then reaching the top. But they don't necessarily show the journey or the process which gets them there. So when you see this, you relate to starting from the bottom, but you don't necessarily know how to get to the top. And that creates a lot of anxiety and stress for us.
[00:13:01] Speaker E: I definitely agree with both points and I think it really does have to do a lot with expectation. I would like to think that honestly at this point the average Gen Z entering the workforce would have somewhat real expectations of what their life is going to be like. But I think since we grew up with social media and people showing off their wealth and how successful they are, I think it planted a seed of this expectation. It was like what your life maybe should look like or what it could look like. And I think it just comes from inside where it's like you're expected to, you feel like you need to do better. Look at these other people around me and they're doing so well.
[00:13:37] Speaker D: So let me debunk this myth and perhaps take a provocative position. You know, there are many companies and organizations and senior managers that are somewhat weary of this gross assumption that two years into the job you guys think you can jump into a senior management position. I want to be creative director, I want to be an executive board level person. And it's like, well, you've got two or three years post qualification experience. How do we debunk that? Do you understand the value of work? Are you prepared to put in five, six, seven, eight years given that the average tenure ship in a company is 4.5 years, that's the average globally. What can we do to stop your job hopping?
[00:14:15] Speaker A: It starts from educating us and setting realistic expectations from, you know, school or from university because not a lot of institutes actually teach us about in and outs of getting a job, the expected salary or like what to do when asking for a raise or like what to do when actually interning and you know, what you're actually supposed to do in order to be successful in this. Seeing that we're relying so much on social media, most of our expectations come from people who are already successful. And so these people are always like, oh, get a job, ask for a raise. And when you get a raise, if you don't, you can always find another job. It's sort of pushing this expectation of non permanence, like your ability to find a better job is sort of damaging your ability to make money as well.
[00:14:58] Speaker E: I definitely agree with the points. During high school I think you should be learning about this type of thing where you should know what you're getting into. It's a Scary thing when you're 18 and you're trying to find a university that you're going into and you're not actually sure what you want to. If you actually want to pursue what you study in university. I think it's only like one third of university graduates in the US actually end up using their bachelor's degree or master's degree for something that they actually like work in. Two thirds don't use their degrees at all. And I think it's just that we have a terrible time like figuring out what we want to do when you're 18 and you're just getting out of.
[00:15:31] Speaker C: I would have agree with both these points because personally when I was like diving into this I was also clueless and I didn't know like kind of like like what was the life after university was like with different jobs, kind of like the standard payment and so on. I haven't known about that until I actually did intern in like different companies and I actually found out myself that kind of like the standard payment what it was like. So I think if like we were maybe given some information or taught about these at a younger age, it will help quite a lot.
[00:16:01] Speaker D: Professor Timur, this brings me to you. There's a dirty word in higher education called employability. What's your take on that?
[00:16:09] Speaker F: Take it or leave it. But it's part of the outcome that the higher education need to deliver. We need to deliver workforce back to the market. But what we try all the time so that we would like to provide a real professional experience during the internship or project that need to be collaborating with the real world industry. So the higher education educators like me cannot foresight what's going to happen. But what we can do is we can offer an opportunity or opportunities to students that they can think about and prepare themselves for what's coming.
[00:16:49] Speaker C: That would be very beneficial for kind of like students and kind of like understanding more of like the future of each kind of like faculty. But can I bring back a bit about debunking how Gen Z are job hoppers? I think it might be a perception to some people because I think what we view is, is first of all we need payment money. But I think a lot of us view stability as a factor as if I want to continue working here will it will be stable for me and also would I be able have to have like an career path like improvement kind of like that if I feel like maybe it's hopeless or kind of like might not be beneficial for me, maybe I would want to change jobs. But I don't necessarily think that we kind of like just job hop for the money, but kind of like we view like different aspects to it.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: I don't know if it's the right word, but push and pull is sort of like the concept that I'm grasping at. I also think we are responsible for managing our own expectations because in a recent like data survey I also saw in the United States that Gen Z expects their salary to be about $500,000 per year to feel successful. Yeah. And that's like completely way out of the median, like average expectation. So sort of just honestly open discussions if possible between the generation gaps or people who are working and people who who aren't would help us bridge this sort of misunderstanding.
[00:18:05] Speaker E: I really did want to jump in when Ginny said looking at a future when you're in a job and a viable career path, something that grows. Because of course I'm not expecting to make $500,000 right out of the gate, but maybe I want to get there eventually and if that job can't offer me that even in the future, I would consider going somewhere else to try to get a better growth rate.
[00:18:25] Speaker D: Let's probe a bit more and talk about the future of work. Recently, Deloitte's have shifted from traditional annual reviews to regular check ins and ongoing feedback mechanisms. And this actually reflects formative assessment points in education. It also nurtures a culture of transparency and responsiveness, aligning to Gen Z's preference for immediate and constructive input. Do you think this is preferable to have ongoing evaluation rather than an annual performance review?
[00:18:53] Speaker E: I think it is. Especially when you're starting out to a certain degree. Even if I have a bachelor's or a master's in internship opportunities or whatever, I would still be kind of clueless on what I'm doing. And having feedback immediately would make me improve right away rather than waiting a whole year to get feedback that may or may not work for me.
[00:19:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I think sometimes when you wait a little too long, you do have the chance to figure out for yourself or you just completely give up on it. So I think checking in at regular intervals would definitely help realign my understanding of my task or like my expectations within the workforce.
[00:19:27] Speaker C: Yes, I would have to agree with that because personally, like when we're in the work field, sometimes we think we're doing good, but we might not be actually doing a good job because we can perceive ourselves differently. So I think getting feedback would actually help with what we are kind of like adapting into Professor Timur, I'm thinking.
[00:19:46] Speaker D: This could also work in higher education too. So scrap the usual summative assessment points that occur once or twice a semester and switch to something more on the micro level.
[00:19:56] Speaker F: Strongly agree top up from smaller or micro scale assessment. I think the other aspect that we are trying to do is to have like clear assessment criteria, for example, a clear rubric for each assignment tailored to specific nature of the projects rather than looking at the overall outcomes. If, for example, if the project is looking at progress during the project development as an expected outcome, then the assessment criteria need to pay attention to that rather than the outcome alone.
[00:20:27] Speaker D: Let's talk about flexible work culture. Is this a prerequisite of you accepting position in a company and has it got to a point where unless you can bring in your dog and wear your pajamas, you're not going to take on a job?
[00:20:40] Speaker E: I think that being flexible definitely does help incentivize me. Like if I was able to be in the office three days a week and being in an online meeting, the other two, that does sound appealing to me because I do value my free time and having the freedom to play right.
[00:20:56] Speaker D: But you got to put in 40 hours a week.
[00:20:58] Speaker C: Personally, for me, I actually find it very appealing because I've talked to a lot of people nowadays and multiple people, they love remote working because. Because I think it's not about sometimes not about like being comfortable at home, but kind of like saves time on like traveling because some people don't actually live close to a workplace and traveling can be very difficult and takes a long time and a lot of effort. Kind of like it's very time consuming. So I think from like interning at companies, they kind of like do three days at work and two days at home and. But the two days at home would be like when they have like online meetings with kind of like clients and so on as they only have a meeting that day and they don't have to like kind of like travel the long distance to work. But it's kind of like more of a. For more efficient working and being more convenient.
[00:21:42] Speaker A: Exactly my take as well. I do think being able to choose my work hours, as in when I work not necessarily the total amount of hours I work would make me a more efficient worker. And it also helps me work in, you know, for example, an environment where I am a little bit more comfortable. It does help me think clearer and, and I think if it makes me become a more efficient worker who can do more work in a shorter amount of time with the same quality of the amount of time that I spend in the office, I think it's a win win situation.
[00:22:08] Speaker D: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think the best companies should be outcome focused and providing you can deliver that outcome on time, you should be able to structure your working day to suit how you decide to get that assignment completed. But we have to accept we're talking in Chulalongkong University in Bangkok. This is not California or Berlin or London. And if we take a tradition, traditional large family company or a listed company, they might be more resistant. Or do you think that is changing in Southeast Asia in terms of culture?
[00:22:40] Speaker E: I think in countries like Thailand, we are a conservative country and ultimately I think the change will be slow, but I think it'll come eventually.
[00:22:48] Speaker C: Personally, I view it as it's already changing because like when COVID 19 hit a lot of companies they actually turned to remote working. So after COVID 19 has ended, a lot of companies, they actually had like a combination. They kind of like an approach working in the office and also at home. But due to different kind of like schedules, like if they don't have anything, meetings or any necessity to kind of like come into the office, a lot of companies are now like allowing for people to kind of like work from home, which I think is very good.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: Coming from the background of an international school, I do have a little bit of a different perspective on traditional work businesses in Thailand, but I do see a lot of it changing. As you know, Gen Z is taking over the workforce. I do think that we share a sort of more holistic, more uniform sort of viewpoint on work and that that is definitely going to be changing in the near future.
[00:23:41] Speaker D: So, Professor Tema, you can probably guess what this question is. Should this be embedded in a higher education? I maintain that as educators, 21st century students being taught by a 20th century curriculum based on an 18th century calendar are outdated to say the least. Surely blended learning is the and that way we can shift the lower orders of Bloom's taxonomy online and when we're together, support the higher orders of critical thinking. Is that going to happen?
[00:24:09] Speaker F: Sure do. Actually we've been quite resilient and adaptive to the changes, but that might not be projected out to the public much. But there are many ongoing research and practice in our education practice that we really care about the taxonomies and the more advanced topics that the student need to study. And we are very open to new teaching methodologies and to bounce back to the flexibilities. We definitely look into that.
[00:24:38] Speaker D: I want to talk a little bit about Leadership. I appreciate that you guys are in your 20s, but it's not going to take that long before you are in leadership roles. And I want to talk about how might you redefine what it means to lead a team? For example, focusing on values based and collaborative leadership, leveraging technology integration or emphasizing emotional integration, intelligence. This is a very different perspective in terms of leadership and I think it's more constructively aligned to how you can perform as leaders.
[00:25:09] Speaker C: I think viewing leadership in like today's society, it combines like many perspectives. Kind of like we have to both value our team members and our team members opinions. Also very collaborative working space. But we also have to focus on the outcomes, outcome as kind of like the goal of the company, different companies, but I think kind of like being open. And I think another topic that has been really talked about a lot is mental health in different companies and also in different teams as like it's being more openly talked about. And actually I see different companies kind of like bringing in like, kind of like help into these kind of like aspects.
[00:25:51] Speaker E: I think that to me empathy is definitely the biggest gateway to trying to work with, with people that are in my generation trying to understand first of all, first and foremost, where do you stand as a, the leader and the people that you are working with that are, are they with you, are they on the same page and trying to understand what they're good at.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: Being a leader to me is sort of like a balance between doing the things that must be done and also uplifting members of your team and also like sort of identifying their strengths and, and weaknesses in order to know which cards to play at the right time. I think my generation is very insistent on being heard and being accepted for what they think. But at the end of the day, as we need, we have like a quota, we have a goal to meet. You have to be able to tell or sort of identify which things, what actions we're going to take, what decisions need to be made and sort of balance this sort of fine line of being heard and doing what has to be done.
[00:26:46] Speaker D: Professor Timur, as someone who's stepped into leadership, what advice would you give younger academics looking to follow in your footsteps? Tenure positions at leading universities? In terms of leadership, what are the qualities that you are looking for in terms of succession planning?
[00:27:02] Speaker F: Be nice, be generous to people and be thankful for people you work with because that will be the skills that you will be needing in leading positions or management positions, for example. Because understanding multiple groups of people you work with, that's quite a crucial Key in order to run the position. I think the key takeaway is understanding amongst all of us apart from the word generations which is the terminology that defines the topics today and defines all of us around these conversations. I think understanding is quite key in everything. If we understand and we try to understand or try to communicate, that would be things that I think is good for all of us.
[00:27:44] Speaker D: The last question here is there are lots of CEOs, senior executives, enlisted companies, HR managers listening to this program. What advice would you like to give them regarding how they can get deeper engagement, deeper talent acquisition and talent acceleration.
[00:28:00] Speaker E: From Gen Zs A somewhat clear defined path of what their future is going to look like in the next, let's say like five, 10 years. Because I think the biggest issue for me is that past like the two to three year mark, I have no idea where my life is going. So by giving them anchors and checkpoints of okay, by this time you might be doing this this, by this time you might be getting a raise and delivering on those outcomes. I think that you can get the retention. Another thing is it's difficult but empathy is definitely a big point when it comes to Gen Z even though it is really grading on patience sometimes because I think it's a very difficult thing for Gen Zers to open up Gen.
[00:28:42] Speaker C: Z's as regular people. Like we're not that different basically. And I also think think that in workplaces transparency and communication is very important for us and also kind of like being open minded as we were raised and we grew up differently due to generation gaps. I think like being open minded and like transparency with like the work and different kind of like aspects in here and like kind of like communicating with us would help a lot.
[00:29:10] Speaker A: I would say be authentic, just be yourself. We want to work with a company that has clearly defined morals and not necessarily hiding behind a facade of corporate like this sort of feeling of distance. We want to be able to communicate with our hirees. We just want to be able to foster this relationship of clear communication, honesty, empathy, understanding and you know, as we are entering maturity we are trying our best. Like we understand we have responsibilities to make. We understand that our path isn't clearly defined but we also need help in identifying these sort of roadblocks or like pathways along the way. So just communicate and be clear cut. Be true to yourself.
[00:29:52] Speaker B: Many thanks to our guests Professor Timur Mukdong, Nietzsche, Hadin and Nikki there Hacking Kaizen is produced by DSA Nikki edited the program. We'll be back at the same time next week but until then, from me, Graham Newman, many thanks for listening.
