Documentary storytelling with Bangkok Pat

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Hacking Kaizen. I'm Graham Newman. We start this second series of programs with the YouTube filmmaker and historian Pat McKay, better known as Bangkok Pat delving into the city's hidden gems, historical narratives and and personal accounts that provide a unique lens through which to explore and experience Bangkok. Born in London to a Thai mother and British father, Pat relocated to Bangkok in his early 20s to reconnect with his heritage. His engaging storytelling and deep rooted passion for the city have garnered him a dedicated following, making his channel a valuable resource for locals and expatriates seeking to explore a deeper understanding of the city's multifaceted identity. In this extended interview, Pat shares how he weaves research and personal narrative into his films, revealing what goes on behind the scenes to produce YouTube content that informs and entertains. We'll also discuss the hot topics of when and how as a content creator to respond to YouTube viewer comments. More importantly, when not to location filming in private and public spaces, and how the difficulties of getting access to what should be public information on Bangkok's rich history, infrastructure and culture often remains locked behind closed doors. Stay tuned for an enriching insight into one of Bangkok's leading documentary filmmakers here on Hacking Kaizen. [00:01:47] Speaker B: From a young age, I've always been interested in the finer details of history because when I was a kid in school I remember researching the area where I lived and I went to the library and they had all photos, maps, information, everything you could ever imagine, every single resource you could need. So I found that fascinating at the age of 13. So growing up, if ever I was interested in anything historic, it could have been anything. I would always try and seek out every little detail and that rubs off in the videos I do because whenever there's a bit of history, I want to find out every little thing and sometimes I've even not included stuff because I wasn't sure about something. I wanted to get it, get it right. Because with YouTube and any social media, there's always people out there in comments and interactions who can't wait to tell you how wrong you are or how you didn't do it like this or I should have been here or I should have talked about this. So I wanted to cover myself. Not that I care anymore about people's comments or the negative side of it. [00:03:05] Speaker C: No, it's not. You shouldn't. [00:03:06] Speaker B: No, I was really conscious of that when I started because I've been on discussion forums for years by Thai expat based ones and I've seen the kind of toxicity that emanates from them. And it's not very, it's not very pleasant sometimes, you know. But with YouTube, when I started I used to be a bit sensitive to it. Even if someone disliked the video, I would think to myself, you know, what have I done? What did I do wrong? But with comments now I sort of understand the kind of people who make aimless, negative comments. They're not looking to really do anything constructive with it. They're just trying to get, you know, piss you off. So now I smile because I think, well, you've got absolutely no reason to do that other than you got nothing to do. You know, sometimes you get criticism that is constructive and it does make you think, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's, it's all a more sort of blase to it. Yeah, that's how it all began pretty much. [00:04:18] Speaker C: What inspired you to start uncovering the lesser known stories of Bangkok Outside of the well worn locations and narratives, I. [00:04:27] Speaker B: Wanted to cover topics and places and get information that no one else was getting or doing places nowhere else no other youtuber was going because I wanted it to be different. And when I, when I searched on YouTube about, you know what anyone, if anyone was doing any history stuff or delving a bit deeper or you know, getting a bit sort of nerdy or into finer detail, I was surprised actually that I couldn't find, I thought oh wow, no one's even tickling this history. It's such a basic thing because if you, if you googled London history on YouTube there'd be quite a few, you know, there'd be, I think there's 10 really good channels that you can watch and get really into. Well, I do anyway. But with Bangkok, yeah, no one was really, really covering it. There's, there's three or four Thai channels that do it in Thai but they only really scratch the surface and what the information they, they give is usually stuff that's not word for word but it's, you know, you can read the same thing on Wikipedia. So I thought, oh, I've got to do that. So I did a video on this area because I've always known this area and it was the first place where I rented my first decent. It wasn't a condo actually, it was a house just up the road here. The ratiotin 20 years ago. And I really like this area because there were very few foreigners. It had everything nearby and it was also, it also seemed very, very local as well. And I could just jump in the van and go to Mortic Skytrain and Then years later, when I'm. When. When I came back in 2016 and I saw this place here available, they hadn't yet built the skytrain to that station here, but they were. [00:06:36] Speaker C: And this is LA Pro 24 Rachiocin. [00:06:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And I thought, brilliant. This is right outside the skytrain. And I know the area so well and now I know the history of it as well. So my first video I did, I walked around here quite extensively and found stories, went to places I remembered and it was. But it was difficult to research anything in depth because the information is not there on. On. It's not on Wikipedia or anything like that. And it took me two months to do the first video. I remember pressing, go public on YouTube, clicking that, thinking, right, this is it, I'm out in the open. You know, I'm. Anyone's. Anyone can have a crack at me and anyone can be horrible to me. Now I'm. I'm out in the public eye on social media. I remember coming back one day, about five days, and I checked it and it was a few hundred views, which is a lot for a first video. That's a lot. And I was quite. And a few comments and I was quite excited. I thought, oh, I'll do another one now. [00:07:51] Speaker C: So, yeah, I wanted to ask you about the intrinsic motivation of that. I mean, it must have felt quite a turning point for relatively inexperienced historian, broadcaster, somebody who's in front of the camera. How did that feel? [00:08:09] Speaker B: I didn't buy a camera till I started YouTube. I. I'd worked on radio when I was in Cornwall because I lived here 2002-9, I went back to England for six years and during those six years, I didn't have the flat in London anymore. So I went to stay where my dad was, where he'd retired and moved to, and that was Cornwall. So I ended up spending six years in Cornwall. It was great to go up and down to London, but during the week when I wasn't going to London for work, I had a lot of time to sort of do stuff. So I managed to get on local radio and that was the only time I had any experience in actual broadcasting. So I learned how to speak clearly and slowly and, you know, you've got to be understand, understood. The first time on radio, you can't repeat yourself. So I learned to pace myself and get just the right amount of information out to make people understand immediately, which is. Which is kind of like the name of the game. So when I was doing the videos on YouTube, I thought I've got to pretend I'm doing it for non native speakers. It's got to be understood and clear immediately. Plus the information. If people don't know about Bangkok, you know, they want to know the information straight away. So I simplified it and made it as accessible as I could. [00:09:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I think one of the tenets of professional broadcasting is, you know, present yourself to a non specialist audience. Very inclusive and very, very accessible. And you clearly do that. It's very compelling. Let's go back and talk about the process. Pat, I wanted to ask you, how do you balance sensitivity and authenticity when sharing stories about communities and local personalities who may not be used to public attention? [00:10:17] Speaker B: It's got to be something they could be interested in. And you've also got to sort of get straight to the point as well. How many, you know, videos on YouTube do you watch and the guy starts rambling and you've lost it, you know, in one or two minutes because he's gone off on some tangent about something. I was very conscious of that because the YouTube audience, you know, my first couple of years, I was very conscious of running times for videos because attention spans are quite short on YouTube to your general YouTube viewer, but getting the balance as. So for example, if I went to this Canal, Canal community up here and there was a guy there who, you know, he lived in a sort of low income neighborhoods, he had a job, say, recycling garbage. And he lived there with his family, you know, six of them in one small area. If I wanted to talk about him and feature him in a video, I'd be quite sort of sensitive to his, to, to stuff like, you know, how people are going to look at him. I know, I know people watching will have their own ideas of what his social status might be, where he's from, what he does for a living. So I'll try and make it as real but also as positive as possible. And depending on what kind, he might have a story that's really relevant to that, to that neighborhood, that neighborhood, they might have moved there 60 years ago. They were all, you know, relatives of former Muslim slaves who dug the canal, that kind of thing. So, you know, you've got a little story there to tell. And I would make it so I could introduce him and give his story how that's relevant to this piece. And the piece would have to have a beginning, a middle and an end. Even though it might just be, it might just take up, you know, two minutes of the video. I wanted to get as much as possible out of it, but I wouldn't want to delve too deep into his personal, you know, I'm not going to ask him, you know, what school do your kids go to or, you know, what you're having for dinner tonight or can you afford that? No, because that's not really. That's not the point of it. So, yeah, it's balancing and getting the right information out there and being sensitive to that person's situation. You know, social status is a big thing here. Like when I did the. When I do the videos, I've done two videos, Klong Toy, in the communities there, and I'm doing a third one next month. And people, if they watch a video on Klong Toy, you know, the slum communities and the canals, if you watch a lot of them, you know, someone will, you know, go into someone's house and show the way they live. And I, I didn't really want to follow that, that way of doing it because from my own personal point of view, I think that's a bit. A bit intrusive. Yeah, I talked about. I talked about, you know, a few families who were living there and their situation, and it fitted in with the theme of it. I didn't want to walk around Klongtoy pointing out, you know, piles of rubbish and telling people how bad it was and telling people that, you know, these people should go out and find a job. No, I didn't. I did the history of the slum areas. I did mention, in not so many words about how they are looked at socially by Thais and by foreigners and how certain classes of Thais and foreigners would look at them and then what attitude they would have to them have towards them. And also what the government does and doesn't do for them. So I put all that together. I think I balance out, because I don't want to sugarcoat it, but I also don't want to. I don't want to sugarcoat it, but I don't want to miss anything out. Someone might say, oh, well, you didn't mention in the government they didn't do this for them. Or they. Or they find it hard to get jobs because of, you know, their skin color or their address or where they live. You know, if they go for a job interview at M Sphere around the corner at the big shopping mall, if their address is in, you know, the Lock 456 community, they probably won't get the job. [00:15:23] Speaker C: That happens everywhere, though. That happens in Hong Kong, that happens in Jakarta, even Singapore. It really resonates with me what you've just said. Pat, Because I think we have a duty to be as objective as possible in terms of the narrative. And I want to expand on that and ask you what are some of the biggest misconceptions people have about Bangkok and how do the hidden stories you uncover challenge or expand those views? [00:15:53] Speaker B: I got a lot of people saying to me stuff like, how do you, how can you go to these communities, how can you go to these areas and film them, talk to local people and you ask them about the big divide between rich and poor, the big contrast between, you know, high end condos on one side of Kong Toy and shacks over the canal, you know, 300 meters away. How do I explain that to, to these people? Because they, they obviously they see it and they know I see it. I've got to make a reference to it. I can't pretend it's not there. Tricky. But sometimes you got to, you got to be honest about it. But also, not everyone gets the ironic, dry British sense of humor as well. Sometimes you've got to look at it in that sense where I'm being a little bit, tiny bit sarcastic. I'm making reference to how the higher social classes look at them and I'm taking the piss out of that because I know there'll be people watching that say, oh, how can you say it like that? But the way I say it in a dry, humorous way, I make sure it doesn't sort of, I make sure no one can turn around and say to me, I'll be, you know, you defamed me, or you said this about, you know, my social class or, you know, you have to tread a bit carefully. But you also got to be honest. When I did, when I did a talk for the Expatriate Orientation Program conference at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, a couple of the staff there who had asked me to do it had watched my videos. And one of the videos they'd watched was about Kong Toy slums, the second video. And in that video I'd actually talked about the fact that you got. Overlooking the slums. You got Channel 3 TVs Tower and the Bangkok Post tower. They could see it every day when they go to work, they look down on those slums. Yeah, literally they project this idea to, in the media that everything is so fine and dandy here in Thailand. We're all doing so well, you know, we're all going to be rich, the economy's brilliant, and at the same time they look down and see these communities. You know, I felt I had to make a point of that. But in a way that it's not offensive to anyone. You know, I make it sound like I'm just observing it. In a way, they would see it. So that way, Bangkok Post can't send me an email and say, oh, take that out of your video. I'm offended by that. [00:18:59] Speaker C: No, they can't. And in that respect, what you're doing is actually quality journalism. Within reason. We have freedom of the press here. Within reason. You have to report the rough and the smooth. I think it's our duty to do that. [00:19:16] Speaker B: It's also important not to be seen as some kind of mouthpiece, speaking from one viewpoint. Otherwise it'll get boring for people. You know, they'll sort of be able to predict what I'm gonna say or what I'm gonna criticize or how I'm gonna find some kind of connection to somebody's status and what people would think of them socially. I mean, but that's very. That's quite rare. I mean, that was just in. In the Klong toy videos because I felt someone would think that way when they were watching it. So I thought I better say it. I better mention a couple of things. Either way, I said it wasn't sensitive. You know, I said it in the way that everyone else would think. And as you know, 80 of my viewers are expats or ex expats or people who come to Thailand a lot, English speakers. Then they would see where I'm coming from. And people do acknowledge that when I'm doing this kind of topic. And you've also got to be neutral. You can't say it from. You can't say it from your heart. You can't have a. Make a stand and have a. Have a. Have a say, a leftist viewpoint about it, because you get known for that. So you've got to be unbiased, but you've also got to word it in a way and in a very British way, if that makes any sense. [00:20:56] Speaker C: Yes, it does. I mean, it reminds me of C.P. scott, the legendary editor at the Guardian, said, comment is free, but facts are sacred. And I think you need to have. We need more facts in this world at the moment. Rather than subjectivity, let's talk a little bit about blending your research and your personal narrative. So when you're approaching a new story, how do you strike a balance between thorough research and leaving room for personal insights or spontaneous moments on camera? [00:21:33] Speaker B: I think what Instagram and YouTube and TikTok has done is it's made all the stuff that used to be nerdy and geeky. It's brought it out so everyone can watch it. I can watch a video of an old 200 year old watch that was found at the bottom of a river being taken apart bit by bit. It's an hour's video, but people are fascinated by that. All these little minor details on things like historic stuff, you know, you can watch a video on how they bolt together railway tracks on the underground, how they did it 100 years ago. It's such a niche thing, but it's brought it out into the open. It's not really nerdy anymore. I can go into much as much nerdy detail in a video as I want now. And no one turns around and says, oh, you're sad. Or, you know, that's a bit nerdy, isn't it? Or like when I was at school, there was always the kid, the swat, the kid in class who was a geek and he knew everything and people took the mickey out of him for that. But really half the kids that took the mickey out of him were jealous of him because he knew everything. And that isn't so sort of, that isn't seen as so sad anymore. It's actually people want all that information. So if I do, if I do a bit about the train station, you know, I can, I can make references to stuff that I know Trainspotters would get, or in jokes about stuff that I know someone who was really into it would understand, and I can get away with it. [00:23:19] Speaker C: Well, let me prompt that. Let me frame that by saying I'm incredibly envious of anyone that has the ability to do a two minute monologue to camera. And you do this and you nail it time and time again. Is it rehearsed or how do you prepare for that monologue in front of camera? Let's say you're doing a piece on the street. And let's take the Clash one, for example. An astonishing piece of work in itself. How are you preparing for that monologue, Pat? Do you have bullet notes? Or is it scripted? Or how are you actually delivering that narrative? [00:23:59] Speaker B: What I do is I memorize it. I got to look at the camera when I'm talking and there's nowhere I can put a script up because you'll see me watching it. And also, it's got to be natural. It's got to sound like I know what I'm talking about. And yeah, some of them take 10 takes, 15 takes. Sometimes I might spend 40 minutes in one place just for one, you know, 50 second monologue about the history of this Gate or something. So that's the bit that people don't see. They think I walk up there, just say it all and go to the next place. But that's not the case. I will write it down on paper in the way I'm going to say it. Not bullet points, because I know in your head you'll just mix it up when you're trying to remember stuff. And I will usually take around 10 takes before I've got the whole paragraph. The paragraph might be. Might be six or seven sentences with full stops. And after I've got it right and I've got the take right, I'll try and do it again just to see if I can do it better, then I'll try and do it slower. So now we've got three I can choose from. But, yeah, it takes. It takes time. [00:25:23] Speaker C: Yeah, I think. I think it's. That's a realistic ratio, you know, 1 to 10. That certainly happens in, you know, my experience of documentary filmmaking. [00:25:34] Speaker B: Also, when people want to come out and I get. I get asked a lot. Can I come out with you for the day and film you going from place to place? A couple of people have come and I've said, you'll be bored because I'll be standing in that place for half an hour doing the. Saying the same thing again and again until I get it right. And when I'm filming, I'll film from this side of the street. I'll go over there. I'll do one shot from there. I'll do a couple of buildings up also, you know, in the same part. And I'll be running from here. I won't have time to stop and talk to you. [00:26:11] Speaker C: No, because you got pickups, you got B roll. [00:26:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And that usually when they come along, they do find themselves sort of standing about. I don't know if they're bored. They're watching me, so that's what they wanted to do. So they're probably not bored. But my girlfriend, you know, in the beginning, she came out a couple of times and then she. After about the fourth time, she never asked to come with me ever again. [00:26:40] Speaker C: You mentioned writing in long form your script, which you then memorize. And five or six takes, you'll get it right. Can we just take a step further back? And can you describe your research process for a documentary piece? And how do you ensure accuracy while still allowing your unique voice and perspective to come through? [00:27:06] Speaker B: Funny you say that, because the video I put out the other day on the Bangkok floods, I got an email about that and I was told by this guy who obviously is a bit of a geologist and an expert on Bangkok floods and the processes and how the city has dealt with it. And he said, oh, your video is inaccurate because this is not what. This is not the way the city dealt with the flood and this is not how they did it. And he obviously had worked for them or he knew something. And he pointed out a couple of bits that I wasn't quite correct about. But the issue with that was I can only work with what I can find online. [00:27:58] Speaker C: Yeah, I think providing you're actively not seeking to do anything defamatory, you can only work with the material that you have. [00:28:07] Speaker B: He said to me, he told me three things that I got wrong in the video. Not wrong, but just inaccurate his word. I said, well, it would have been nice if you got in touch with me before I did the video because I can't find any, all this information. Like he said, oh, the lowest point, the lowest point in Bangkok is Bangkapi. And I said, oh, nice of you to tell me that because you cannot find that information anywhere online. Try Googling that and you'll never find it. Try Googling the distances in meters between Skytrain stations, you'll never find it. Write to the Skytrain and ask them, oh, that's not public information. Why isn't that public information? It's such a simple thing. You can find it on the London Underground. All right, I want a map of Bangkok in 1929. I've seen the map because someone's posted it, I want to buy it, I want a PDF copy of it. Who do I get in touch with? You can't find anyone to get in touch with. This stuff is not easily accessible. So I'm up against that. And I explained this to this guy, he hasn't replied yet. And basically I told him, I said, look, if you want the right. If you're expecting spot on accurate, perfect information, then you've got to make that available. I can only go by what I can find and make up my own mind. And actually the information, a lot of the information I got about the 70s and the 80s, the flooding and the flood management in Bangkok was actually from the dialogue of Associated Press news articles that were in it. So it wasn't, you know, I didn't, it wasn't like I made it up off the top of my head and just guessed it, you know, because you can't do that. Someone will always call you out. And with the, with the history stuff, I find if it's a bit sensitive. Like if I've got to explain a clip about why this park in Lodpra Road is named after the Thai anti Japanese movement, Seri. Seri Thai. There is a Ser Tai park in the east of Bangkok and it was in part of the video I was doing. It was in the area. I thought, well, I'm going to have to explain why it's called Seri Thai park and why this is called Seri Thai Road and why there's a museum here. So I had to explain the Serie Thai movement and people would think, oh, you can't talk about that. You know, World War II, the Japanese being in Bangkok and Thailand working with Japanese. I'm thinking, why not? You can look it up and find it. I'm not making anything. [00:31:01] Speaker C: It's history. [00:31:01] Speaker B: It's history. And so I explained the movement and what happened when the Japanese came to Bangkok and gave the story. And then when I put the video out, I got a few comments saying, oh, you should have talked about this. You should have talked about when Thailand, when, when the military government did this or said this. You would have got loads of views. [00:31:26] Speaker C: But that's not the point. [00:31:28] Speaker B: Yeah, and I probably would have made a few enemies as well. And that is not. That's not what's in Wikipedia. That's. You're speculating about this because that's your personal narrative. You know, you think that, you know, the military government at the time did it because of this or they had their own interests. That's not for me to give my opinion on. I'm just telling the story as it's. As it happened in history. Same as other stuff about, you know, the kings, the royal family, stuff that's related to history. And around Bangkok, I tell the story. People get over sensitive when you say to them, oh yeah, I'm going to tell the story about King Taxin when he came to. When he came from a UTIA and set up Tonbury on the other side of the river. You know, why, why was he executed? Why was he overthrown? You know, I have to explain that and I'm not going to give the fairy story that you'll find on online. I want to put a bit of truth into it. But again, I can't bring my own personal opinion into it and say, oh, it was bad or it was, you know, they shouldn't have done this or they shouldn't have done that because that's neither here nor there. And I want to give an unbiased viewpoint. So when people say to me oh, you should talk about when King so and so did this or when he had this, because you'll get loads of views. I say, well, what good will it do? And what, what good will it do my channel? And it will give people an opinion about me that I'm from a certain sort of political standpoint, which I'm not. I'm not. I don't have any sort of biases towards anyone. No. [00:33:15] Speaker C: And I also think in terms of your position, Pat, you're, you're not an adjunct provocateur. You're a very genuine, well researched documentary filmmaker. I think that's the space you're in. [00:33:27] Speaker B: You gotta be unbiased, you gotta be truthful. And you've also got to try and give two sides to a story or to something that happened in political history, because when you are doing history in Bangkok, you can't avoid it. Every little story, there was always something happened because of this political figure or this member of the royal family. What I don't like is when people think you're out there to be bold, just for clicks, like when people say to me, like I just said, you know, you should tell the story of when the King went here or when he did this, because it will get loads of views. I think, well, why would I want to criticize any member of the royal family? Because it's not going to do me any favors. It's not going to add anything to the story. It's just going to look like I've got some ax to grind and. But I'm not here to be controversial. And I don't understand why people want to say something bad about an institution like that just because you can, or just because you can be controversial. [00:34:44] Speaker C: I think that's the minority who, broadly speaking, shout louder than most people. [00:34:52] Speaker B: What they're trying to do is they're trying to provoke you to either talk about or mention, you know, the whole criticizing the monarchy thing. You know, there is a, there is, there is a viewpoint about it in the media, there's various viewpoints about it in social media, and people can think what they want about it. But from my personal point of view, people want the freedom to criticize the monarchy, but my attitude is, what have you got to say about them in the first place? And why do you want to say it and why do you feel you want to say it to everyone? [00:35:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I think the why should be the starting point. [00:35:34] Speaker B: What's your point? You know, where's it going to get you and who is your audience? So. And That's. That's why. That's my attitude. When people write to me in comments and in social media saying that, you know, I should be more controversial, I say, what for? You know, you don't go there anyway. Here in Thailand, it's just a no, no. And even, you know, you. Even. It's different in the uk, but here, the man on the street, you know, he. He loves the king, he loves the royal family because they've been an institution. And that's the way. That's the way it's worked since, you know, since this current dynasty was. Was established. They've all been. They've been part of the fabric of what has made Thailand. So what am I going to get out of trying to be funny or sarcastic about them? So, yeah, I'm sure you can edit that down to something legible, what I just said. [00:36:34] Speaker C: Yeah, my ratio is about 1 to 15 as well, Pat, when it comes to editing down. [00:36:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. And the Clash as well. The information I had to find for the Clash video, that was hard. I had to find as many clues as possible as to that location and exactly where it was, because, like I said in the video, I knew where it wasn't. I knew that all these guys doing videos and posts on Facebook and social media saying they'd found the spot. I knew that wasn't it. I thought, oh, why can't you try a bit harder? You know? Oh, it was Makasan. It had to be Makasan because this. This war was there in. In 1981 or whatever. Whenever it was, it was 82, actually. But I did the video. I started the video not with the intention of finding that location. [00:37:26] Speaker C: Oh, right. [00:37:27] Speaker B: I was just going to speculate where it could have been. And then one night I was hunting through and I found this discussion forum by, like, real, real music aficionados, real anorak stuff. And there was a discussion about the Clash Combat Rock album. And I found. I went through every 16 pages of everyone's comments, and I went through every single one talking about the artwork. So someone's got to talk about the artwork and where it was. And then someone said they'd read an article by the photographer who talked about her day with the band. And I found the sentence I was looking for. They went to the end of New Petrebury Road by the railway tracks and sat there and took the photos. And that all sort of tied in with me studying the map of the geography. The under Petrebury roads at that time was at the intersection with soi Prakkanong and Ram Kamhaeng. And it had separated away from the railway track enough so that you couldn't see it in the album cover. And then when I went there, I looked at the track alignment, I saw that little hill that you can just see blurred in the. [00:38:41] Speaker C: On the album cover and the hospital in the background. [00:38:43] Speaker B: On the hospital in the background. I wasn't 100% sure that was a hospital, but I thought it had to be and it had to be the old building because that was torn down. So I was thinking it couldn't be any other building. Absolutely couldn't be. And it couldn't be anywhere else because that is the little tiny hump at the end you can see as it goes over the canal. And plus everything else fitted. So I thought, wow, I better not to be a smart arse about this when I announce it on. On in on Twitter, because there's always been big speculation about it. Rock music fans, not just with expats and a lot of ties. This is, this is the Clash were and all that kind of music at the time. [00:39:31] Speaker C: Enormous. Yeah, enormous in Southeast Asia. [00:39:35] Speaker B: Yeah. So my. I thought I better not be too much of a clever bastard about this. I better come out and be a bit down to earth and say, oh yeah, it was nothing really. I won't tell them about all the hours of research I did till 3 o'clock in the morning. But it's those things you do find that enable you to put that bit of history into the video. It might only be a few minutes, but these are the small things I think, that will make a difference or set you apart. [00:40:09] Speaker C: That comes down to the criticality, doesn't it? It comes down to trying to find the truth. And this is embedded in the human humanities, is embedded in research, embedded in history and having that rigor and grit to quantify the truth. Which leads me on to where do you want to go from here, Pat? And perhaps I can give you my five cents. I would love to see more feature length documentary style, potentially for film festivals and things like that. Is that space that you'd like to move into? [00:40:45] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I've seen some of the stuff that gets submitted to festivals and I think to myself sometimes, oh, I should. I would have done this or I would have done that. And it's not something that's so out of reach like I thought it used to be. I last film festival I went to was the. It was a climate change film festival and it was a foundation run by the author Christopher G. Moore. And there was lots of series of short films being shown, and they were gonna. They were giving awards for it. And I. What. I sat and watched them all, and a couple of them were. Were no more than, you know, very basic, basic shot videos. Editing was very basic, but they were getting the message across. [00:41:40] Speaker C: Hey, it's all about the narrative. [00:41:42] Speaker B: And I thought, one day, you know, I will do something that could get me here. I'm doing. And someone did actually put. Put some funding up. Not a lot, but the 20th anniversary of the tsunami. Yeah, we're going to myself and Carl, who is a Great Storyteller on YouTube. He's been in a couple of videos of mine and he's got his own great channel. There was a guy who got in touch with us and said he wanted us to do it together because we'd done a video together back in January, and he'll put some money up. If we go to phuket to cover 20 years of the tsunami, there'll probably be other YouTubers doing it. And I can imagine what they might be like. Probably nothing too in depth. So Cole's great because he's fluent in Thai. We can go and talk to local people about their experiences. I can get some of the more unusual stories, what people have to tell. And there's also angles on it that. On the research I've done that people haven't covered. There is a tsunami exhibition at Syria Hospital in the forensic science department. There's a museum. And that gives you all the information on how the medical teams from Syracuse Hospital, they went there and set up a huge field hospital a few days after it, what they arrived to find and what they had to do, what they had to put together, how they had to tell the media, what injuries people were getting, how they were treated, how they dealt with the unidentified dead. No one's gone into depth in any of this, on any tsunami video. [00:43:35] Speaker C: I think. I think that's fascinating. I mean, disaster mitigation is a fascinating topic within itself in Thailand. And I think what you're doing rightly is finding the gaps in the knowledge. [00:43:47] Speaker B: I know people wonder about it. That's why. And because I did when I went to the. I went to the tsunami exhibition a couple of years ago and featured it briefly in a video. And it had all the stuff, it filled in, all the gaps that I was wondering about. What was in the emergency ration pack they gave the people every day? Well, where did the people sleep? What was it like? And since I've been researching this, there's some Fascinating stories. People lost everything. There were groups of them, you know, medical teams hadn't arrived to deal with the, you know, with the more minor injuries. People were just hanging around, not knowing what the next move was. You know, they, they'd lost everything. They didn't know each other. There were groups of people sleeping in on the beach under trees. They didn't, they didn't know what was going to happen the next day because they lost everything and lost their best friend who died or their family had disappeared. But because it took time for help to arrive because they obviously weren't prepared for it, who would be. There was all this stuff in between that didn't really get touched on in any of the reports or even in. There is a film about it, it's called the Impossible, which recreates some of the, some of the stories. It also sort of glosses it up a bit. But you know, it's only. This is only going to be 20 minutes, maybe 25. So I've already got more than enough of the in depth stuff. It's just, it's just going out there filming it. And there's only a limited amount of footage that was shot of the waves. So we got to sort of make it interesting and get it out and put it out on Boxing Day as well. So we're going on the 7th, we're back on the 10th. I've got to edit it and have it ready for the 26th. And believe it or not, I know that's quite long. That's quite. That's not enough time for me. Editing. [00:45:53] Speaker C: Never underestimate how long an edit takes. Yeah, on that notepad. Lastly, I wanted to ask you in terms of historians, journalists, young people looking at your work, what you've achieved in terms of creating this very reputable space. As a historian and a filmmaker, regardless of expat or thai, what advice would you give young people wanting to come into this space, wanting to tell a story, research it well and you know, essentially get comfortable with being uncomfortable and publishing it. [00:46:27] Speaker B: I keep an eye on that when I'm doing my videos because I always think to myself, in 20 or 30 years time, when someone like me wants to start this kind of channel, they can look at all my old videos, use all my old footage and get some of the information they need from that because I know what it's like looking for it. There's no official real archives here in Thailand. There's no library or encyclopedia on history. And like I said earlier about finding stuff out, like simple things like the Skytrain thing I mentioned about the distances between stations. It's not public knowledge. It's like, why is it so secret? I just want a simple bit of information for my video and you're telling me it's not public information. Why? What am I going to do with that information? That could. Stuff like that, you know. Same as when you go and film in certain places and they say to you you're not allowed to take a picture here or you're not allowed to film here. Like I can see an. When you, when you get the ferry and you land on the ferry pier, it says no photos. And I'm thinking that's stupid because every tourist is going to take a photo of the viewpoint. So I took a photo knowing the guy was going to tell me no photos. And I wanted to ask him why. It's the river, you know, this is the public river, this is a public place. Why have you got on your pier no photos. There's no logic in it. And I said to the guy, he said, no photo. I said, why? He just said no photo. I said, tell me why nobody is allowed to take photos here. I said, does this river belong to icon Siam? Is that what it is? And he couldn't explain. And then I filmed further down because I was doing the Oriental Hotel video and I wanted it in the background and I did it quickly knowing that someone would come and an English speaking senior member of staff was sent down to talk to me and tell me that I couldn't film. And she came and told me that it's not allowed. And I pointed out three people who had selfie sticks and tripods that were filming themselves. I said, well, what about them? Why are you coming to tell me I can't film? Just because you can see me standing talking in front of my camera, Maybe I look official or something. I said why are you coming to tell me? Why don't you go and tell them? And I, I think it was because it was the old sort of typical thing, isn't it? I look like a foreigner, so maybe I'm easy pickings to come and tell off. [00:49:18] Speaker C: I think it's potentially a broader problem and that's the blurring of what is public land and what is private land. Now it may be that CM P WAP own that land and they have the right to tell you not to film. [00:49:33] Speaker B: They do, yeah, they do actually own that land. [00:49:35] Speaker C: This is where it becomes problematic because public space is actually being reduced and owned by private shareholders. I'll give you an example. In Canary Wharf. You can shoot handheld in Canary Wharf. The moment you put a tripod down, you'll get jumped on because it's private land. [00:49:53] Speaker B: Same as a sky train, its health and safety. But I can see how I didn't put a tripod down. I put the camera on the ledge and did it that way. [00:50:04] Speaker C: Right. [00:50:05] Speaker B: That day I felt they were just picking on me because I'd taken a picture down at the pier when I got off the ferry. But, yeah, private land, they can do it. But my point was, use a bit of common sense. People are going to take photos. So the Siam Square is another example. It's private land. You know who it belongs to. You can't film openly because they'll tell you to stop, because they've got their own security team. It's private. When I filmed four years ago, I filmed a few things. There was one security man there who. I shouldn't say this, actually, because he saw me doing it and he didn't mind because he knew I'd just be a minute and I'll be dumb. I took a picture of the facade of a building that had been exposed because they were going to fix it up. And it was the original, the one you see in the picture when it was built in 63, those buildings, you could see that pattern. And this guy went mad because I took a photo of it. And that was the time before the Scala theater was demolished and a lot of people were going to do pictures there because it was going to be demolished. [00:51:22] Speaker C: That's Chula land. [00:51:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to say. Yeah. And this young security man went ballistic because I took a photo of the outside of the building up there. I couldn't understand why he would care. And what would his brief. What was his brief? To stop people taking photos because of what. What. What am I going to do with that photo that could be so scary to you. You know, you have a bit of. Give a little bit. You've got to give a little bit. If someone comes to my. My compound and I've got a historical sculpture in the corner, I accept people are going to come and take photos of it. If I go out there and go mad and say no photos, they're going to think I'm some nut job. [00:52:06] Speaker C: I think, you know, one needs to be bold, one needs to push yourself a little bit. You know, if you're shooting in public, if you are talking to members of the community who might not necessarily be, you know, particularly comfortable. So what advice would you give young people wanting to follow in your footsteps? [00:52:26] Speaker B: Yeah, before I, before I talked about that, that was the original question, wasn't it? You're gonna have fun editing this. You gotta be patient and do the research. You've got to get it right. And you can't just make, make it up because you, it might be right. It's got to be right because with the way social media is and the amount of experts out there who watch stuff and aren't necessarily looking for stuff that's wrong so they can jump on it. It's just that you've got a lot more people out there who do know their stuff that are going to watch it and you need to get it right. And you also need to impress them as well. You know, most of my videos I do, I do have one eye on, there might be some Thai professor somewhere of history watching it and it'd be nice to know that he knows I've got it right or he knows I've done the research. I always think of it that way as well. You've got to take the time to do the research. Probably won't be as difficult in 30 years time. I say, you know, it's so difficult doing the research, but that's part of, as part of why I love doing it as well. You know, when you find what you're looking for and you find a photo or some video footage from 1956, you think, oh, that is going to look great. And you know, stuff that most people wouldn't even notice or wouldn't even listen to still means so much to you. [00:54:00] Speaker C: I just wanted to ask you, in terms of the footage, do you have to get clearance and rights to publish that on YouTube or is it in public domain? So for example, the Dong Meng documentary, you had some historical footage there. Did you have to get clearance to use that and did you have to pay for rights to use it? [00:54:19] Speaker B: I didn't pay for any rights. I actually got the footage. The footage I used, I couldn't actually find who owned it, had been uploaded by someone who'd got it from somewhere. And some of the other footage, the copyright had expired. The copyright has expired in a lot of these old photos. So much so that I actually give up looking. And a lot of the photos I use, they're in a million places elsewhere. And I thought to myself, what did all these million places get permission? No, I'm sure some of the footage on Don Muong, which I didn't bother getting permission for because it would have been too much hassle, might be copyrighted, but I don't Think it is not if you know 20 other people have uploaded it. And also in the past I did used to seek out the owners and try and get permission. No one ever replied. Militaryvideo.com I wanted to get permission to use the footage of the R and r in the 60s in Bangkok. The US the GIs going around Bangkok. I wanted, I wanted, I thought I'm going to get bona fide permission to use this video and purchase a proper high resolution copy of it. No one replied. I wrote back to them. I wrote to a Facebook page that was active by veterans. I said, can you get in touch with this? No one ever gets back to you. So if they come to me in two months time and say oh, but you use my footage, I say oh, I tried to get in touch with you, don't come to me now and ask me to take it down because I will make it doubly difficult for you to get me to take it down because I covered myself. I've got all the correspondence that even though your Facebook page is active daily, you couldn't even reply to my message. [00:56:09] Speaker C: Precisely. I mean I think you have a very strong legal case there and A it's in the public domain and B, you have a paper trail of seeking permission. Now as a filmmaker, should your timeline be disrupted by people who are not being proactively responsive for clearance? [00:56:26] Speaker B: Yeah, there's got to be a bit of give and take. And if someone, it's like there's a box you tick when you upload your videos and YouTube, do you allow people to use it? People are going to use it if they want it anyway. So I tick, yes, let them use it. If someone, someone sends me a message and says oh, can I, can I use this bit of your video? So yeah, I'm not the kind of person who. I know some youtubers get funny about it. There was a guy I followed a channel transport in Thailand. Does it covers Bangkok transportation. I won't mention his name. I followed him for ages and ages and then I wanted to use some construction footage on the Skytrain and I wrote, I said I want to use 25 seconds of this. And he said no. And I was shocked. I thought, I've interacted with you, with you in comments on this discussion page. You know who I am and what I do. And you said no, I never followed him ever again. I don't watch his stuff. [00:57:31] Speaker C: No, precisely. [00:57:32] Speaker B: I've got no interest in what he's got to say. [00:57:35] Speaker C: That speaks volumes, doesn't it? About the small mindedness of this. And I think we're on the same page where, you know, broadly speaking, within the Creative Commons space, if you are publishing work, it's actually more rewarding to have people referencing you and you make and expands the ecosystem of what you're doing, have a reduction in revenue or anything. It's more rewarding to have that pull in terms of building that. Building your community. [00:57:58] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, there are situations where, you know, you're not going to get permission to use a certain thing. So I won't or I don't ask. If I'm looking for YouTube footage and I want to use another YouTuber's footage, you're usually fine by putting their name on it. Certain channels might be sensitive to it and make a big thing about it, so I don't bother with those. But, you know, with, with us YouTubers, Bangkok YouTubers, most of us know each other. We've met each other, we do YouTube meetups or subscriber meetups and we turn up to each other's places. And all the guys I've met have been great guys. If I need a drone footage of Lumpini Park, I know who to ask, and he'll happily give it to me, and vice versa. [00:58:50] Speaker A: My thanks to our guest Bangkok Pat there Hacking Kaizen is produced by dsa. We'll be back at the same time next week, but until then, from me, Graham Newman. Many thanks for listening.