Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Hacking Kaizen. I'm Graeme Newman. Today I'm joined by Chris Regal, partner and vice president of business development at Seven Peaks Group. Here in Bangkok, we dive into the complex yet fascinating dynamics of digital transformation and how businesses can navigate the ever evolving landscape of technology and workforce expectations. While digital skills are crucial, the ability to build and maintain personal relationships remains vital. We asked Chris how to balance the high iq of digital natives with the strong EQ, the emotional intelligence of senior executives and project stakeholders. We'll also discuss the role of data in driving transformation with the belief that combining numerical insights with employee feedback provides a comprehensive view of where the changes are needed. This dual approach can reveal hidden pain points and opportunities for improvement that might not be apparent through data alone. And the financial implications of not adopting digital transformation are often more significant than the costs associated with implementing these new solutions, noting that SME's often have an easier time with digital transformation compared to larger enterprises burdened with legacy systems. Join us for this insightful episode as we explore the intersection of technology, workforce dynamics and business strategy.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Yeah, so I think there's a lot of opportunity in terms of the overall strategy and vision. There's a lot of opportunity in terms of where we can grow. And I think that for a very long time, you know, we've largely been generalists, but now where we're trying to focus is more on key areas of growth in different industries or different topics.
[00:01:59] Speaker C: Right.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: And that could be, for example, the hot topic of data and AI right now. That's definitely a key area of focus for us. That's where we're now starting to do a lot more work. And that was kicked off by the creation of our enterprise architecture and data business units beginning of 2023. Outside of that, we also see other key themes.
[00:02:19] Speaker C: Right.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: When we talk about financial services, this is also a key area and key focus given the digital adoption required by banks and the evolving consumer demand. We also push quite a bit in the financial services sector. And another area that we're now starting to look at is really sustainability and esg in terms of reporting, in terms of helping organizations, being able to track through accurate reporting and data collection, to really be able to report, to set or leverage that in a number of different ways and have access to things like green loans, things like this. So be able to monetize the good effort that they're doing to become essentially carbon neutral or close to net zero.
[00:03:00] Speaker D: So this is backbone technology to enable more ESG efficiency in terms of preparing.
[00:03:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: So going back to my first point and talking about data, data as a whole, this is really the backbone, right? This is really the platform where you can then essentially launch a number of different business use cases. So a lot of the work that we're focusing on right now is how do we help organizations aggregate from the data sources, their data? How do we ensure that there's proper data governance there? How do we ensure that we can do things at a basic level, say, from a basic reporting, right, that's step one. But then having essentially these data platforms that you can then launch other initiatives off of.
[00:03:39] Speaker C: Right.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: That could be ESG reporting.
[00:03:41] Speaker C: Right.
[00:03:41] Speaker B: That could also be AI use cases, right. At the end of the day, the organization has to be able to have fundamentally a basis of clean data, aggregated data that they can use to be able to then leverage that in the various ways.
[00:03:57] Speaker D: And how much of this is pull responding to customer demand or push with the company's R and D investment in new products and services?
[00:04:06] Speaker B: Yeah, so I think initially it was definitely pull because we started to see the market picking up.
[00:04:12] Speaker C: Right.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: We started to see common themes from customers coming to us and saying, hey, we really need to address these key topics. And then based off that, that then made us come to the realization that there's a really strong opportunity here. And the problems are very common across different industries, different organizations.
[00:04:30] Speaker C: Right.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: We solve these common problems, and that's where now we're in the mode of going into push, where, you know, we can address these common problems in a systematic and standardized way, of course, you know, addressing the custom aspects of what the needs are for each organization. But really the problems are fundamentally the same. And then that's kind of where the push approach now comes in, where we're starting to say there's a proper way to do this, there's an easy way to do this, but let's get started somewhere. And I think one of the things that we also saw was people jumping to say, hey, we want to do AI, but the first question is, well, what are your use cases? But more importantly, what's the dataset look like? What are the data models? Do you have all these things in place? And the answer is oftentimes no. That's where things really kicked off.
[00:05:17] Speaker D: Yeah. Given that we're in one of the region's best tech companies, I'm actually going to throw all of my questions into the bin and talk about Gen AI, but beyond chat. So where's it going?
[00:05:28] Speaker B: It's a good question, and I think that's a question that many organizations have themselves. I mean, we've seen strong use cases for chat, right. Especially around, like customer service. There's a company in Sweden, Klarna, who has a very strong case study in the impact of using chats.
[00:05:45] Speaker C: Right.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: But I think outside of that, we see other cases where it comes to, say, larger organizations and the querying of data internally.
[00:05:53] Speaker C: Right.
[00:05:53] Speaker B: So essentially information access is another key area.
[00:05:57] Speaker C: Right.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: So how do you make it easier for your personnel to access information that they're privy to in an easier way? Right. And that's efficiency.
[00:06:06] Speaker C: Right.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: That's being a lot more efficient because oftentimes in large organizations, you're chasing people around to try and find these bits and pieces of information. So that's one of the ways. Outside of that, you know, there's been forms of, I would say not just gen AI, but just AI in general.
[00:06:19] Speaker C: Right.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: You have a lot of use cases around, you know, around the, well, let's say Mlai, around predictive maintenance.
[00:06:26] Speaker C: Right.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: So being able to understand when, say, machinery is going to go down before it actually goes down.
[00:06:31] Speaker C: Right.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Using ML models for this, that's been a fair, that's been something that's been around for a very long time, but it just doesn't get talked about as much. But the impact of ML models or AI solutions in that respect is significant when it comes to manufacturing, because if a manufacturing line goes down for even a couple minutes, that's significant loss to the business. But outside of that, I mean, I think that every industry and every organization is now searching for what is that use case for, whether it's Genai or AI. And I think that the challenge is really being able to find what is the problem.
[00:07:04] Speaker C: Right.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: And then defining that problem clearly also establishing that strong ambition statement for this is where we want to be able to be and then starting to kind of work backwards and then start to see, well, okay, how can we apply this with our understanding of AI? How do we tackle that problem? But having the problem first is the most important thing.
[00:07:22] Speaker D: And I guess it's your responsibility as the partner and head of business development to also say, well, AI is a solution to a problem that may not necessarily exist for your organization.
[00:07:33] Speaker B: Absolutely. We have a lot of people come to us saying that they want AI, and like I said earlier, we want to try and solve, let's say, simpler problems first so that they have the platform to then be able to go to that next step. Oftentimes we also see that maybe it's not AI, maybe it's just ML, right. Maybe it's just machine learning that can solve the business need, and that's oftentimes the case. Right. But I think that with the emergence of Genai and how fast AI is progressing, every day AI models are gaining IQ points. We're going to start to see stronger use cases because the models are able to support more complex issues and essentially provide more complex solutions to those organizations. But I think where we are right now, what Gen AI and what all the different models have been able to provide is very early days.
And I think that one of the things that we've seen is when it comes to using AI to reach goals or having goals in mind for AI, that's where the models aren't there yet. They're not quite there yet. They can generate an image, but even sometimes those images aren't exactly hitting the mark or you start to ask questions. But, but the context is still missing because it doesn't have that basis yet. And I think when it comes to really goal oriented types of use cases, they're not quite there yet. But these models are very strong in, say, customer scoring.
You can use it for things like this when you have those strong data sets already available.
[00:09:02] Speaker D: I guess this is also down to partnerships, too. How do you make decisions on potential partners that can complement the company's AI strategy and deliver solutions?
[00:09:12] Speaker B: I mean, we have two real key partners when it comes to our overall solutions. But also on the topic of AI, that's Microsoft and Amazon. And they've been very dear partners to us in, before AI being really that go to cloud partner and providing services out of the box for us. They've been able to help us grow as a business by also having that true partnership in bringing clients to us, while we also bring clients to them. We've also invested quite a bit in being able to certify and train and upskill our internal staff on different certifications and things like this, so that they also have these capabilities that for as long as they're with us, can use. But also it helps them in their professional growth as well. I think that these have been really two key partners because we also see this massive shift in cloud transformation, cloud migration with now, especially in Thailand, the large investments in data centers here, and this really strong push in transition to cloud. And I think that with partners like that, it's been something that we positioned ourselves well and through their support has also helped us to be able to grow as an organization.
[00:10:18] Speaker D: Thinking about transition, Chris, let's look at the market now. Presumably it's still shaped by a combination of digital transformation, e commerce growth, and a thriving startup ecosystem.
[00:10:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: So I think right now what we've seen, I recently looked at essentially a survey that was done by UOB, and we see that the market is now starting to rebound. We see that there's positive outlook in the second half of this year, which I think is reassuring to everybody. And we see that really the emphasis and focus on digital is also still really important. Right. You know, even before this, when we look back to Covid, right. We saw essentially a catalyst for digital right. Across all industries, right. To be able to essentially address new normal, essentially to be able to continue to operate. Right. In a manner that provided business continuity. And now the market kind of slowed down last year, but we still see demand, right. We're still seeing people wanting to do projects, wanting to build digital products because consumers are driving a lot of the time. Or on the other side, businesses know that they will gain efficiency and become more effective by also adopting digital solutions. So whether it's, if the market's taking a downturn and cost is a focus, there's still investment that can be done to save costs, to become more efficient as an organization. When the market starts to turn up, then it's also looking outwards at consumers. And then how do you then engage consumers in new ways through new digital channels and things like this? So I think there's always a constant demand in digital, whether that's cost savings or revenue generation. But I think in terms of the market, it's promising that things are turning and that there's a positive outlook in the second half of the year.
[00:12:01] Speaker D: Can you tell us a bit more about where the smart money is? Because I'm guessing it's not fintech.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: Ooh. Well, I guess a lot of the money right now is going into AI, right? That's the hot thing. And I think it's a space where it's still very early days. So if you get in early, oftentimes, that's benefited those that invest in it the most.
I think that, I guess smart money is really looking at what is the next big and impactful thing. But I think one of the most important things is where the money is going is where is the impact going to be created. And I think that that's where you have to focus on. I think when it comes to investments in, say, startups or let's say, the thai ecosystem, I think that that's something that is still in the growth phase. I think it's still, it kind of retracted a little bit for a while, but now it's starting to come back. I just saw the other day Germany is investing in. Actually there's about three or four transactions that were done by german companies in Thailand and that was something that was quite notable. And I think that Thailand itself, when we talk about investment, Thailand as a whole is positioned quite well in ASEAN and AIPAC as a hub for creativity. It's also a place where it's very attractive for talent to come and essentially build startups. Right. There's also a lot of support from the public sector, from BoI board of Investment, right. That can incentivize and help support foreigners or international organizations that want to set up here, that want to build here, while also then being very attractive for, you know, international people to also call this home. And I think that that's a combination of great education, right. If we talk about private schools but then also access from around the region. So I think Thailand's in a good spot.
[00:13:48] Speaker C: Right.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: It's just kind of what's going to be that spark that gets everybody to really jump back in again and see Thailand as, hey, this is a true startup hub and this is where we can invest our money and see some strong returns.
[00:13:59] Speaker D: Yeah. Looking back to this concept of Thailand 4.0 now were ten s curve industries that were identified by the government and thats going back quite a few years now. And we had aviation, inbound tourism, we had biotech, we had automotive. And im not sure if weve actually delivered on a lot of those. I mean, retail banking, certainly public services, probably less so. Smart aggregates, agriculture, these are really big industries that it would be very favorable for the government to perhaps go back and readdress that and partner with companies like yourselves to really kickstart this up again.
[00:14:37] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:37] Speaker B: So I think with Thailand 4.0 and these key industries, there is progress being made. For example, we work with Agritech customers and Thailand is very strongly positioned as what could be a leader in Agritech. A large portion of the nation's GDP is based on agriculture, largest exporter of rice as well as other fruits, vegetables. So you have a massive agriculture industry that could be transformed through technology. And we see that a lot already through IoT. That's one of the key drivers in that industry, right. In terms of say sensors and monitoring of crops, livestock, looking at air quality, water quality, feed quality, and optimizing really that whole process. So there's a lot of work that's being done there. There's also a lot of work in terms of financing. Right. So if you have smaller players that can have access to microfinancing, things like this, they then have opportunities to, you know, essentially increase crop yield and then essentially build a better, a better lives for themselves in the other areas. I mean, if we talk about smart city as one, as part of the things for, for Thailand 4.0, Bangkok is definitely getting smarter. I think you're starting to see a bit more in terms of I just was down Sukhumwit the other day and I saw AI camera. I don't know exactly what that means, but it seems that things are getting smarter. I don't know what the impact is of that, but it's something that I guess things are moving in a certain direction. If we also talk about, we talk about waste management and things like this, that's also becoming a lot smarter. I think the way that we're recycling and things like this and collecting is becoming much more efficient. So I think things are going in the right direction and there's a lot more consciousness on a lot of different topics. So it's getting there. Getting there. It'll take some time, but it's getting there.
[00:16:25] Speaker D: Lots of opportunities for the company and you, Chris, specifically, I want to know more about in terms of your role, is it all about hitting the numbers every quarter for you, or are there more strategic, measurable goals and milestones to track the long term progress and success aligned to what the board expects from you?
[00:16:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: So I think, I mean, the numbers are the core KPI, but getting those numbers is not just, you know, it's not just a volume game.
[00:16:52] Speaker C: Right.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: And I think, you know, one of the key things that we've tried to take as an approach, right, when it comes to business development element and when it comes to working with our clients, is really a focus on creating value for them, right. Creating impact and creating value. And if we're able to do that in whatever capacity it is, whether that's in consulting, design, development, delivery, data, whatever that may be, if we're able to create an impact for them that's positive, that means that we're in a better position to work with them over the long term. And that's really the focus is not just how do we get this project, but how do we work with the client at a starting point, and then how do we expand that to be able to support them across the other initiatives? Or how does this first engagement help us and help them to create a platform or a foundation that we can then launch off of, to then look at other bus or to look at other areas of the business that they could also benefit from. So I think, really, the numbers is one thing, but I think if you're doing good work, you're helping customers create an impact, helping them succeed in business, then the numbers will come, and I think that ends up becoming secondary. But if you're doing good work, you go in with good intentions to really be able to help. Then I think. I think at the end of the day, you don't have to worry about the numbers so much because they just come.
[00:18:00] Speaker D: And how about the relationship side of it, Chris? How much of your time is spent talking to your customers and figuring out how to fix their problems upstream?
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So I do about 9 hours a day of meetings. No, just joking. But majority of my days are with clients and that's existing or that's new clients. And I think for me personally, that's what I enjoy the most about it. It's something that keeps you on your toes, but it's also something that's quite rewarding when you can really, you can build those relationships, you can solve their problems.
[00:18:30] Speaker C: Right.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: And you really do it in a good way. That's what makes it all worth it. I spend most of my days hearing the challenges, trying to find solutions.
[00:18:37] Speaker C: Right.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: And I think that one of the key things in a role like this is we're problem solvers. We have to be problem solvers, and we have to be creative, and also you have to be able to pull on the support of the team within the organization. Right. And I think that that's what makes it all possible.
[00:18:52] Speaker C: Right.
[00:18:52] Speaker B: It's coming together and being able to do this. How do you solve the problem? In a smart way? By leveraging, you know, our architects, our designers.
[00:18:59] Speaker C: Right, right.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: Whatever is necessary to help the client. At the end of the day, I.
[00:19:04] Speaker D: Want to unpack your leadership style. Chris, you have a natural, phenomenal communication and interpersonal skills. You're naturally a can do guy. You're always responsive. You're always quick off the blocks. So what makes you tick?
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Well, firstly, thank you. Appreciate that. I don't know. I guess my style has been one of just do the right thing. I think being responsive is also really part of that. I learned early on in my professional, and I learned from a few. I had good mentors early on in my career that really taught me how to just be a human when doing business. And I think that that's kind of something that I've tried to carry on with me. And what's really been part of my leadership style is be down to earth.
Don't make a fuss about hierarchy or anything like that, but because at the end of the day, your team and the people that you lead are the ones that allow you to be the person that you are. If you can inspire people, if you can. I'm not saying that I do that, but I'm just saying if you, you know, if you can encourage people, motivate people and really get them on board with, you know, the direction that North Star that you're working towards, that's something that I think takes you very far. Right. And, you know, I can't do my work without my team.
[00:20:19] Speaker C: Right.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: It's just. It's just not possible. So I think when it comes to leadership, it comes down to really just being human about it, right. Being able to engage with people, being able to relate with people. Right. And not just what's happening professionally, but also what's happening personally. And be that support system, because we spend most of our lives working at the end of the day, and that needs to be an enjoyable experience. Still means that when it comes to doing the hard things, you have to get the hard things done and you have to work hard and you have the long hours, but you need to be able to enjoy it. And I think when it comes to leadership, if I can create an environment that people enjoy coming to, then you're probably going to get better outcomes. At the end of the day, I.
[00:20:57] Speaker D: Guess there's also responsibility for these core competencies that should be nurtured for succession planning within business development.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the key and fundamental, I guess, core values that we have at seven peaks, right. Is really this growth and development and not talking about the organization, but talking about the people. And one of the key things that we try to do is we try to make sure that there's proper career planning.
[00:21:20] Speaker C: Right.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: That there is not just on the succession side, but really on that growth side.
[00:21:23] Speaker C: Right.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: And being able to give the people the liberty to be able to grow in the direction that they want to within the business. Right. I mean, when I talk to my teams, I want to put them in the position of what do they enjoy doing, right. Of course, there are certain things that we need them to do as a business.
[00:21:37] Speaker C: Right.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: But I want to put them on a track where they enjoy.
[00:21:40] Speaker C: Right.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: They're doing the things that they enjoy. They're working with clients.
[00:21:43] Speaker C: Right.
[00:21:43] Speaker B: That they, you know, are. They're inspired to be working with, because I know that there's going to be a better outcome by doing that. So I think for us it's very important to have one, a career growth plan. Right. And we use a number of different tools and methodologies to track that.
[00:21:57] Speaker C: Right.
[00:21:57] Speaker B: And to have transparency around that. What is the next step? But I think also it's just about understanding the person and then understanding what their aspirations are doing. Those one on ones, really being able to know how they're feeling, what do they want to do next, where are their blockers, where are their challenges? And then that also helps them to really understand what's next for them.
[00:22:16] Speaker D: So it seems to me that there's no issues regarding how to engage with Gen Z. I hear a lot of directors and founders going, I don't know how to talk to these guys, but you seem to have solved that one.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: I have my challenges. I'm not going to say everything's rosy and all good, but I'd say that myself.
I'm 30 odd. 30 odd. I'm kind of stuck in the middle. I came from a background where working in hospitality was a very disciplined type of business, long hours, and that was my professional foundation, and that was instilled in me. I love to be in the office five days a week because I'm also a people person. I want to engage with people. I find that you do better work when you're with people. And I think that Gen Z is a different kind of group today. And I think that they are very, very sharp iqis, right. They're very. They're digital natives. They're true digital natives, right. And everything revolves around, you know, their phone. Right. Their smartphone that they have in their pocket.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: Right.
[00:23:18] Speaker B: And that's where life, you know, a large portion of life exists. But I think that, you know, if we look at the generations before that, you also had strong EQ, right? You had this personal, this social aspect to life that was extremely important. And then digital was the new thing. And I think that it's finding that balance in terms of how do you pull out these EQ aspects and really engage in that way while also respecting, I guess, kind of the focus on the digital side? It's hard to find that balance. And I think it's also due to everything being available always.
And there's an instant gratification, these types of things that oftentimes arise. People want to see things quick because we're, you know, especially the younger generation. Right. You have access to information, you have everything at your fingertips. So I think that's always one thing that you have to be mindful of to be able to manage effectively but also, I guess, still trying to instill some of the older ways. Right. And I think that that's important.
[00:24:19] Speaker C: Right.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: Is, you know, and I think just last point on that is, you know, when it comes to business development, you know, I want my teams having coffee, catching up for dinner with our customers, because that's really important in building the relationship. It can't just be over email. It's too transactional. And I think that where the focus needs to be is really being able to build these EQ skills and still having those kind of social relationships. I think it will be a massive benefit to them 20 years from now when they're doing business, if they have these strong skills, because that would differentiate them from their peers.
[00:24:53] Speaker D: Lastly, what advice would you give senior execs of listed companies regarding digital transformation? Pain points. And you can't just say, call me.
[00:25:03] Speaker B: I think it comes down to listening to your people. I think that's where a lot of the opportunities will surface, is taking the time to understand the person's daily routine and talking about the low to mid managers.
The employees really be able to understand what a day in their life for them is like when it comes to digital transformation. If you can make your employees lives easier, more efficient, they will then be more productive. So I think it comes to, you know, capturing the voice of the employee, right. And really being able to identify them. The other part of that then is also when it comes to the data, right. Numbers don't lie, or at least they shouldn't. And I think that, you know, if you have visibility when it comes to, you have visibility over the organization through numbers. If you couple that with really the feelings and the challenges, the pain points that employees have, you start to really be able to see where a lot of improvements and where a lot of the transformation can happen. Outside of that, also being just mindful when it comes to the consumer side, being mindful and always trying to have a dialogue with your customers, I think is also quite important for the organization as well to see where do you transform next when it comes to the.
[00:26:17] Speaker D: B two C relationship and specifically about the digital transformation, ultimately, this is cost saving and efficiency and reducing risk. From a board perspective, how can we get more engagement? How can we get this narrative higher up the food chain?
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I think when it comes to transformation, right. I guess the, the real driver for this is, is the financials.
[00:26:41] Speaker C: Right?
[00:26:41] Speaker B: That's, that's what gets the board's attention always. And I think that, you know, there are strong business cases for digital transformation in a number of ways just shaping that case and understanding, you know, what are the implications of not doing something. And I think that at the end of the day, it comes down to this, right. It comes down to what is the financial impact of not doing something versus what is the financial impact of doing something. And most of the time, if you're going to do something, something and you understand the problem and you're going to solve it, it's probably going to point you in the direction that says, hey, you should probably do something about that. And I think that it comes down to the financials and it comes down to where can you get your gains? It comes down to where you can diversify yourself and grow as an organization.
[00:27:21] Speaker D: And also it comes down to the board strategy. I mean, ultimately their objective is where are we going to be as a company in five years?
[00:27:27] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I think if we look at a lot of organizations, especially here in Thailand right now, I think that they're going through a major shift. I think SME's have it a lot easier, right. Because you don't have a lot of legacy, you don't have a lot of the challenges that enterprise would have, right. So it's easier to transform, it's easier to kind of leapfrog, right. And adopt new digital solutions and things like that. But when it comes to enterprise, you're starting to see you have a lot of legacy technology, core systems, right, that were the backbone of the business for a very long time. But if I use the example of, say, cloud, right, you see some of the major banks right now going through this cloud migration process because there are inherent cost saving opportunities for them, all right? By making this transition, this transformation as a business additionally.
[00:28:13] Speaker C: Right.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: You also see a younger generation of people that are coming into these organizations that are also have very different ideals that also are akin to new solutions, new digital.
[00:28:25] Speaker C: Right.
[00:28:25] Speaker B: Digital products that also can provide a lot of benefits that. That maybe the board doesn't always see they're not as close to. So I think it's also really a shift in, I guess, this new generational workforce coming in that can drive it. I think that's one of the key areas that we'll be able to help them. Plus, adopting technology, more modern technology that have clear business cases.
[00:28:50] Speaker A: Many thanks to our guest, Chris Riegel. There on our website you can find the program notes and a reading list for this episode. Hacking Kaizen is produced by DSA. Nikki edited the show. We'll be back at the same time next week. But until then, from me, Graham Newman many thanks for listening.
