Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to Hacking Kaizen. I'm Graeme Newman. Today we're with Koji Rokaku, regional office chief and editor for NNA Kyodo News Group. Here in Bangkok, we'll be exploring Japan's intricate social, economic, cultural and political landscape, weaving together historical events that shed light on the nation. Today, Japan faces significant challenges with its rapidly aging population and declining birth rates, a persistent overwork culture and gender inequality, plus a prolonged economic stagnation and the mixed legacy of abbeynomics. Politically, youth apathy and mistrust in government pose challenges to reforms too. So to what extent is this view of the world's fourth biggest economy valued at $4.29 trillion accurate? And how is the nation that gave the world Shinkansen, the Walkman and Godzilla shaping its future? We'll also delve into Japan's collective society and explore why the concept of accountability often remains unclear. Koji provides insights into these multifaceted challenges and potential pathways for improvement. We begin by asking Rokisan what's his view on Japan grappling with its current economic situation, reflecting on its global soft and hard power.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: Yes, we've lost the hard power, which is electronics, the automobile, whatever we had the last couple generations before, especially during the eighties and nineties when we were saying that we bought Columbia Pictures, we bought Rockefellers Plaza. Now we can buy California, something like that. During the bubble economy era. Well, that won't be coming.
That was special. And I think we are getting a little bit more sustainable. Doesn't go too far. But we do have a small, small things that can appeal to the foreign countries. Okay, Japan nosedive. No more soft power. Now it's Korea. Now it's China. Well, let's look around korean soft power. Yes, there is still stable. But have we lost Godzilla? Have we lost Doraemon? Well, they're very solid. They have a popularity even among the young generations or some new animes or movies which I don't know the english title, so I'm not going to say it. Kimetsu no ya ebao. Which is yes, maybe we might be little bit downward trend. Those people can say that we are in the downward trend. We are in the sunset, but I don't think so. We are stable. Not that we are dominating the world or we do have a soft power. We still have a hard power. Not making Walkman or VH VTR VHS like before, but let's just say electronic gadgets. Yeah, we will let the other countries make them. We'll go in for the high end and we do have the high end technology, so I am a little bit much optimistic. We just, we change shape from before.
[00:03:47] Speaker C: Japan's population is one of the fastest aging in the world, with a huge impact on the economy, healthcare system and pension schemes. Can you discuss the long term implications of this demographic trend on Japan's economy and social systems?
[00:04:05] Speaker B: One thing is the second baby boomer, which is the baby's born beginning of 1970s to 1975. Now currently the largest age population there is not getting married. First baby boomers, which was 1950s born, they made babies and the second baby boomer population grew. However, the third baby boomer, well, never came. One thing was that it was during the 1990s japanese economy was in decline after the so called bubble economy, the property market boom and the tremendous amount of bank loans happened, which put pressure to the social economy itself, which lead to many japanese so called second baby boomers into a 30 year depression era. And what happened is that many people couldn't find jobs, especially women, so they had to work as a contracted worker, not a permanent hired, which leads to very unequal treatment by the companies, corporations. Then their earnings, household earnings will begin to also decline, which leads to the difficulty in marrying or making families, that's one thing. And also the, at the same time, the first baby boomers became the well, elderly population, which they, on the contrary to the second baby boomers had the much more finance them compared to the second baby boomers, which. So what happens is the first baby boomers, in Japanese we call it dankai no sedai, these people are holding a large number compared to their parents, which were the grandfather, grandmothers, the generations. And so there becomes the population gap between the first baby boomer and the second baby boomer. One more thing.
This is not only the economy, but the socially, the second baby boomer or the little bit younger people, which is, well, in the west, maybe you call it generation z. They tend to stay single because of their lifestyle, because of their don't want to make families with responsibilities and financial spendings against something social. Rather they use it for themselves. So that also leads to the less baby, less birth rate, the lower birth rate. Well, I heard that the other first world countries is having the same problems. If what I saw the news was correct, the only first world country which had the population policy working was France, but it turned out to be bringing in more immigrants and the immigration.
So that leads to an immigration policy which is having a little bit of controversy around the first world countries.
Now Japan is now facing the same issue as well.
[00:07:47] Speaker C: Yes, because I wanted to ask you about these immigration policies and what potential lessons Japan can learn, learn from similar countries with this demographic challenge.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: In my view. In my view, the Japan very conservative country.
I don't want to say xenophobic, but they're not used to foreign people, even the other asian people, japanese people, are having a little bit of a conflict between them. The immigration policy is becoming a big issue here since not only Japan is having a declining population as well, the aging population is growing. So we need to bring in more people for the productivity of the economy and taking care of the elderly people, nursing hospitals, etcetera. I think in the end of the 1980s, we brought in many people from Iran. As a lay worker, well, do the not so skilled working like a construction or a factory, and that led to many people ran away from the working place, became some kind of a. I'm not sure this is a correct term, but some urbanites, urban gypsy, the government had to clear out all those problems, and then they brought in other persons, people from Asia. First China, now, then Vietnam, now Indonesia, Philippines, Myanmar, those countries. The problem was the people brought in not as a worker, but a trainee. Very slick word. So some companies or the, those hiring agencies were taking advantage of these people and taking away their passports, working them from four in the morning till midnight, locked in a dormitory for a long time, something like those. And what happens is that, yes, the escape became illegal alien in Japan, and they're now causing a little bit of controversies all around, especially in the local area, the city's urban areas. People are quite used to foreigners compared to people in the rural area. But if it happens in the rural area, yes, it's a big. Make a big controversy there.
[00:10:29] Speaker C: So is this immigration policy working just in terms of filling these vacancies?
[00:10:36] Speaker B: Well, japanese government, I think in the last diet session, they passed a new rule of the trainee policy, and also they, at the same time, they also passed the new immigration law. The previous immigration law was quite loose, so it depends on the officers to depend, let the immigrants stay or hold in the certain government facilities or those things. But now it's a little bit more strict. And then at the same time, the trainee policy, I'll call it new trainee policy. It's now a little bit more flexible to bring in workers because before the aging population is growing, the population itself is declining, and the younger generation tend not having babies at the same time. At the last diet session, the government has passed the budget for encourage having babies and raise the birth rate. But many people are still thinking that does this work or not. We all need to find. Look at this a little bit longer.
[00:11:56] Speaker C: Let's talk about work life balance. Rocky Sam, the issue of overwork has been prevalent in Japan for decades. And there's actually a word for it, death by overwork. What are the cultural and economic factors that contribute to this phenomenon?
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Okay, let's divide this into two parts. Culturally, especially, the older generations like me, tend to put society above personality. So what happens is that if I stopped working, all the other persons will have to cover this. My work, which will decline the productivity of the whole company or the whole team, I should say. So I will do my work. That's the old way of thinking of Karoshi. Well, I don't want to say new way, but the present thing is that, like I said before, the inequality between the contract workers and the permanent workers. Yeah, the contract workers will cover the worker, the permanent workers work, so that the permanent workers can move on ahead with their work. For instance, what I heard is that especially in the IT industry, the IT companies, they have a ginormous business, data centers and all those things. And the people who are doing the computer works are the permanent workers. The maintenance person are mostly the contract workers. So they have to go maintenance all the computers, large computers, the small computers with a low pay. Now, in Japan, we mostly hear words black kikyo or black company more than Karoshi Black company or Black Kyo, which is the bosses are arrogant power harassing the workers. The pay is low, work time is long and the demand is high.
And that became a problem. Black Kyo in Japan at present, currently. So people are trying to, a, avoid those black kiyo, try to find white kiyo, which is the opposite, or b, losing their passion for working. You can say quite similar to other countries, work one week, quit, then look for a job for another one month, two months.
[00:14:28] Speaker C: Just for our listeners in North America and Europe, can you briefly summarize this concept of collective society? And there is an english phrase adapted to japanese. The nail that sticks out gets hammered back in. Is that still correct?
[00:14:43] Speaker B: Now, I thought there was an english proverb that says who rocks the boat?
So I think it's not that, how should I say, very japanese thing. I should say the problem about the nail who pops out and get hammered in and whatever is that the japanese people tend, especially the older japanese generation, tend to put society, or many on the top of single person or personality. Well, there's a popular thing, the whistleblower, somebody who tried to appeal to the mass society about the inside problems. I think in the west also, there is a person who tried to point fingers at the whistleblowers and get rid of these people from this certain group, society, company, whatever. Still in the west, they're trying to protect this whistleblower in Japan. Yes, we did implement this idea of whistleblowing. The idea of trying to protect the person from the many is still not shared. The value is still not shared with the other people. How to share the idea with the other masses, other many in the same group, community, society, company is a little bit of a problem in the japanese society. I think in the 1990s, there's one westerner journalist, he wrote the book the enigma of japanese power. He said that the less accountability made the japanese structural problem in the japanese society, which means lack of leadership, lack of the responsibility of the single person who nobody wants to take the responsibility. So the accountability became blur. Who started World War two? Nobody knows. In Japan, something like that.
[00:16:48] Speaker C: Let's talk about gender equality, if there is such a thing. Despite being a developed country, Japan still struggles with this issue. In the workplace in particular, what are the main obstacles women face achieving career advancement?
[00:17:05] Speaker B: I think still the same thing happens in other western countries as well. And it's the problem. Do we adopt it or do we don't adopt it? Or do we slowly, slowly making the advancement? The society itself, I believe my idea, my idea. So japanese society itself is quite male dominated. That's true. That's in the corporate world, in the bureaucratic world. But it was mostly because the traditional family value. Men go out, women protect the house. Yeah, yeah, yeah, those things. The problem, I think is that, like I said, Japan is quite still a quite conservative society. It is not that they don't adopt women in the group or society at the same time, it is quite difficult for women side to get into this, to blend in with this group. Yes, I'm getting a file the hate mail from the ladies. But for instance, people say that japanese corporate world has less management, less women in the management position. Because the business world itself is constructed or run under the male dominated, I'm quoting male dominated society. To get the women into this society to share the values will take a little bit of more problem. And then what happens after that? That's another thing because, okay, then we adopt women in the management position. What will happen to the company, what will happen to the business society as well? I'm saying the other way around. The largest japanese labor union, the head is led by a woman, Lady Mizu Yoshino, I believe is her name. The Japan airline, the largest flagship carrier in Japan.
The president director there is Japanese, the women. I think the society itself is moving a little bit towards liberal way, adopting women, but. Well, I only can say is, yeah, give us a little more time.
[00:19:22] Speaker C: Let's talk about cultural preservation versus modernization. So how is Japan balancing the preservation of its rich cultural heritage with the need for modernization?
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Yes, we do have a cultural heritage, but the problem is that the successes of those cultural heritage is again the population, we are losing population. So there is a lack of successes to those cultural heritages, especially the pottery or arts and crafts people are now around sixties, seventies, and no successes. So in next 1020 years, if there's no people carrying on this heritage, then it will just disappear. The western. Well, I don't want to say western influence to anything. Yeah, bad thing come from the west, everything. No, I don't want to say that. So two things from our, the japanese side, we need to appeal to the what this means, what this place means, what this natural observation is for the japanese people and ask foreigners to use common sense.
A little bit of a courtesy. Ask for a little bit of courtesy.
[00:20:46] Speaker C: You mentioned craft and it struck me as you mentioned the incredible rich heritage of craft in Japan, which also defines the aesthetic of the creative industries. And several companies have been very successful in monetizing this concept. Muji, for example. I think it's important that we capture this craft making before the artisans stop, because it informs design and many ways of thinking through making. I'm wondering if there's any funding for projects like that.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: What I heard is that some government, well, putting this as a cultural heritage, something, something. And then the problem is not that current monetary support, it's for the future. I'm not sure if there is already some ideas that the, for instance, there's a training school, training facility for those arts and crafts. I think now they are doing only the individually and for the some more popular arts and crafts like gum paintings or wooden carving, but not, like I mentioned, the local pottery which is lasted for hundreds of years. But now they're facing cahoot.
Culinary might be also the same thing. Famous sushi temperato foods may be popular, so I don't think it's going to extinct quite soon. But some local local culinary foods, I don't know, the fishing village, fishing pub, rural area, or the mountainous area in the western part of Japan, in the mountain area, they eat shark. That's quite interesting thing. I don't think those extend extinct very soon, but I don't know because it's so local.
I think the government should make some sort of training facility to introduce these arts and crafts, to introduce successes to these places.
[00:22:51] Speaker C: Thank you. And how about youth culture? How is the younger generation of Japan influencing cultural and social change or not?
[00:23:02] Speaker B: I think this relates to a digital gap between the generations. The younger generation, very tech savvy. But the people who teaches these young people is not so much a tech savvy as the young person. Young people or the number of people who can adopt those technologies are very small. So what happens is that, okay, we can do this with TikTok, we can do this with Instagram. And then they lose the moral lose go, lack the rules. Start. They can show you bottles in the sushi restaurants or something. Somebody has to teach them the digital moral, digital common sense in that matters other than those parts, I think the Japanese, young people, young generations, like I said, they are very tech savvy. They are very flexible of adopting the western. Not only western, but for instance, like Korea, for instance, like China. Yeah. Adapting and make it into one of parts of themselves to create new things. For instance, anime or movies, music, those things. I think the or manga in that matter.
I believe they can create new ideas, new things that is different from other cultures, with adopting the other cultures and then making it to new things.
The older generation did that. And I think the new generation with using use of technology, the globalism, the globalism, to adopt the foreign cultures. I think there is much other way. The only hazard must be the Japanese, the traditional japanese society of many, or grouping or whatever. What you just. What you mentioned, the nail popping out, will be smashed in something like that. In this urban areas, I think those problems are very less. But in the countryside, the rural areas, there are still those conservative thinkings. So that will be one concern.
[00:25:17] Speaker C: Do you think, Gen Z, the millennials, do you see younger Japanese wanting to make political and economic change?
[00:25:28] Speaker B: I think they want to make a political change. People online and the online community, you can see the young generation of people are either appealing to the mass about their ideas or totally ignoring everything. Okay, I'll just go my way. But I think the same thing goes with the other western countries as well. Not that many people are grouping up and going against universities or like that. In Japan, yes, people are not that active, as you say, but I think they want to change the political movement, the politics, the economy, the society. The problem is how to overcome this structure that's covering the japanese society. For instance, the electoral voting age has been reduced to 18 years old, usually was 20. I think in the last two, three years ago, they changed over the age to 20 to gather more idea, gather more votes. Well, one thing is that the population is declining.
Put young people more to the political scene. But the people want to change. People want to vote. But vote to whom? That's the problem. The people who is raising their hands. I'll be the next candidate for whatever. Is an old hack, a 70 year old or 60 year old old guy or a 30 year old political activist who wants to vote for them. That's the problem.
[00:27:10] Speaker C: Yes, because I was going to push you further on, perhaps asking what are the underlying factors contributing to political apathy among japanese youth and how might this impact future political reforms?
[00:27:24] Speaker B: Because like I mentioned, the political structure itself is quite solid.
In the cities, in the urban areas, there might be some slight changes, but especially in the countryside, the rural areas, it's already structured. Yes, this family is strong, and this family or this clan has a candidate and it's been doing this being the House of Commons for the last five generations or something, which is already crazy, but that happens. I think one thing is that the number one way for everybody to go past the rainbow bridge.
Number two is, I think some politicians, politicians side, they are thinking that this is wrong, need to change. So there is a small movement, bits and pieces there, here, there and everywhere, to gather a young generation's voice. Is it working?
Kind of, but not enough to change the structure itself because the structure itself is already solid. But like I said before, give us a little bit more time.
It might not be another 1015 years, but yes, there will be a shift.
[00:28:48] Speaker C: So what's your view on how to really reform? Nihon Seifu, ergo the government.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: The government reform? Oh, yes, if I can. Well, I can get a Nobel Prize for this one. But the, like I said, the how to put accountability in the japanese bureaucratic and the political scene, that's one thing. And that thing is already quite difficult because we've been doing this lack of accountability thing for thousands of years, even before the.
Maybe like in the year 500 or something. Now they're doing the historical drama in the NHK. And what I see is that, oh, we've been doing the same thing from that age already, which is top does not make decisions. Top follows the decision of the lower bureaucrats with the plural s, which means it's not single. This is our opinion, sir. Yes, you may proceed. That's how we run the country for the last couple thousand. Well, 1000 years. Is it easy to change? I am not. I'm very curious, but we need to make this thing running, especially this current circumstances surrounding us. Not only the war with whatever, but the economic condition is not good. The political condition is very tense, so we might need to move on whether we like it or not. How? Well, it's going to be difficult. Is it going to be like the western style or maybe much more like american style or much more to people gathering the collective idea? I don't know if it's correct to say european idea, but the or we work as the traditional asian way. Wise men gather idea and then make a decision. That part, that thing I don't know. But still how to adopt accountability, that is a key word, I believe, to change the japanese political scene.
[00:31:20] Speaker C: The last topic I want to talk about is innovation and technology and I think it's pertinent at this time where in terms of the high end semiconductors we're entirely reliant on Taiwan at the moment. Now we know that the US and China are pouring billions of dollars into their own semiconductor industry and Japan has to do the same in order to remain competitive and in order to have some autonomy because we are moving towards an AI based economy.
But how is Japan addressing the challenge of integrating traditional industries with cutting edge technology? If we take an example, the Toyota Yamaha hydrogen powered engine which promised so much and was announced 18 months ago hasn't really developed into what we thought it would be. And there's a concern that, okay, we can't compete with Tesla with lithium batteries so we're going to go for this hydrogen powered combustion engine. But is it too late as an example?
[00:32:25] Speaker B: Well, other than deep state is dominating the world for us. One thing first, you mentioned about semiconductors. We've been having a semiconductor, well, war with a quotation mark with the US during the 1980s and 1990s. But because of the cost problem that's one. Number two, the government industry policy and three, pressure from the us government.
The japanese companies thought producing is not a sustainable business, I should say because the, as we know the semiconductor has different levels from the high tech military grade to yes, your coffee machine or tv remote controller style semiconductor. The lower grade semiconductors, yes, we can produce anyway, but that's not cost effective to produce a high grade military class semiconductor. Yes, we do have, may have a technology but still then we provide to what? Whom rather now the current.
I don't say I'm not sure if this is the government industry policy or by the business.
Now the japanese companies produce machinery to produce those high tech military grade semiconductors. I think there's only two countries in the world, Holland, which is Philips and japanese company. I forgot the name. But the only two countries has the ability to produce a machine to produce the semiconductor, high grade semiconductors. And for the actual semiconductors the japanese government has asked Taiwan's TSMC. I believe it's the correct the taiwanese company to invest in Kumamoto to make the semiconductor factories. Now they produce first.
The first factory has been running. Now they're planning to build a second factory at the same area. So I think we've been chasing the sustainable way we used to call semiconductor a rise of our machinery, the necessity, which means the price can go down very easily. And yes, some japanese companies which was producing the semiconductors, I'm not sure. So I won't say the name of the companies. But yes, they stopped the semiconductor business because they cannot make profits, especially competing with the us companies.
That's one thing. Number two, the hydrogen engine, which is quite, I think it's still very futuristic idea. So I think it's still in the development. But in the near future, I think in next 1020 years, I think can be a reality compared to battery moved electric vehicles. As we all know that the battery electric vehicles have a problem with the batteries.
The bigger battery can carry bigger power, which means gains weight, which means make the vehicle heavier, which will reduce the speed and consume more energy from the battery, which is not sustainable. Also what I heard was that they will damage the roads because of their weight, damage the tires. So they run out very easily. But still the car can only move intercity. I mean, not the intercity in urban areas, not city to city. So we still don't see 18 wheeler electric vehicles at this moment. For the hydrogen engine. I think it is possible to make the 18 wheeler hydrogen engine truck. However, we still need to consider the safety needs of the hydrogen, make the infrastructure which who will invest to the infrastructure at this moment?
Everybody made their bets to the electric vehicle at this moment. So now it is quite still. It's quite difficult to gather the investment for the hydrogen engine. But if it become popular as the electric vehicle, putting the hydrogen stations in the cities to cities or inside the cities like the gas station, then I believe it can be a reality.
Not a long time.
[00:37:13] Speaker C: This is a long bet for Toyota. Yeah. This isn't something that they just threw a little bit of R and D money about. This is something I think you're right. Has been 30 years to bring this to fruition and it may well change the shape of the motor industry the same way that Tesla has disrupted it. But also that market is saturated with BYD and all of these, these chinese EV's coming out. So it really is, I think, a pivotal moment for Toyota. They have to make this happen, I think so.
[00:37:45] Speaker B: They've been doing this for. Since the nineties, I believe. I heard that there's a model, model town somewhere in the central Japan which is run by Toyota and several companies. And I think they built some sort of hydrogen station for the hydrogen cost or to move in the city area. So the. As some kind of a model or experiment. So, like I said, if the investment for the infrastructure, the hydrogen station, the supply of hydrogen, if they become much more smoother, much more stable, yes, this, I think the hydrogen car or hydrogen system can be, automotive system can be, become a reality in the near future.
[00:38:43] Speaker A: My thanks to our guest, Koji Rokaku. There on our website, you can find the program notes and a reading list for this episode. Hacking Kaizen is produced by DSA. We'll be back at the same time next week, but until then, from me, Graeme Newman. Many thanks for listening.
